Hypersensitive Mare

Hey hun how are ya?  I will apologize for misspellings right now as I am exausted!  4 horses and a 3 yr old seem to make me feel way older than I am and this cup of coffe isn't doing a darn thing!  LOL  Thanks I'm glad I could help.
 
There are a couple of things that I like to do with horses like her and you can experiment and see what works for you and what you are comfortable doing.  Couple of things you are going to need though, one is a round pen or safe arena not over 70ft and two lots of time.  What most likely happened at the other trainers is that when they took her out and she wanted to trot they most likely let her trot till she slowed down and wanted to walk or just kicked her to a lope till she wanted to walk.  Thats fine for getting them tired but not necessarily for teaching them especially in a horse that is geared to go.  Those are the horses that need to learn to wait on the rider.  They anticipate the speed coming and want to hurry through the lesson knowing that at some point you will get off and stop.  The idea is not to quite her until she is quiet and relaxed, not just tired and needing air.  You'll feel her relaxe under you and see it in her ears and eyes when she is ready.
 
After you lounge her take a minute to throw the rope over her and see how she reacts.  If she runs sideways just keep doing like nothing is happening and when she stops so do you.  Do that until she either has a foot cocked or is licking and chewing and move to the other side.  ONly when she is relaxed start throwing the saddle pad all over her back, neck, butt and even kind of bang it into her belly.  Imagine a drunk person who has never saddled a horse before.  Really slap the pad all over her and don't stop till she is still.  If she moves around thats fine just keep doing what your doing and most likely with her keep your eyes slightly averted from hers.  If she's nervous sometimes you only make them more so by looking them right in the face.  You might have already done all this and she's fine and if so then great and if not then it only takes a few extra minutes to do it.
 
Now after you saddle her instead of getting right on lounge her again and have her walk, trot and lope in both directions.  Watch her shoulders.  Is she dropping her shoulder and diving into the turn or is she relaxed.  Head up or head level.  All that will tell you what you need to work on.  Now then instead of getting right on stand at her shoulder or just behind and to the side, keep her head tipped to you and be relaxed.  You don't want her to read anything into your body language so be really clear.  I will start really simple with the stirrup.  Pick it up and let it fall so that it bangs her in the side.  Just keep doing it till she stops and then so do you.  When she takes to that then pick up the stirrup again and start flapping it.  Most horses will almost jump out fo their skin when you do this but keep her head bent to you and keep at it.  As long as her head is to you she can only run in a circle or sideways so just hold fast and wait for her feet to stop.  When her feet stop give her a minute to relaxe and soak.  I usually start flexing them at this point to remind them to be soft to the halter.
 
Now just tip her head and start banging the saddle.  Start off soft and keep uping the force till she moves.  Thats her breaking point so keep doing it with that force till she stops again and then you stop.  Dont' forget you have to do this on both sides!  The more you do this day after day the calmer she will get about it, if she isn't then go back and start looking at your release time and make some adjustments.  Aslo I will do a hard pat all over their rump, belly and chest till they realize that I am not asking for movement but just the opposite I'm asking for them to relaxe and drop their head.
 
When you get on don't just get on either.  Step up and lean over the saddle and rub the shoulders and belly where your foot will be.  I always keep thier head tipped to my boot when I get on.  Even kind of pat her hard here and if she moves it will only be in a tight circle so just keep rubbing or pating till she's still.  Do this from both sides till she's comfortable with you just all over her.  Now when you sit down make a point to start flexing her left and right till she is soft.  I want my horses to wait till I actually pick up and click for any movement and the way to get that is to dare them to move when not told.  Start bouncing up and down in the saddle, lean forward and rub the neck, lean back and pat their rump.  If she moves bend her to a stop (one rein stop) and start flexing again and don't stop till you feel her get soft and stop thinking about moving forward.  ON some colts that is all I do for a couple of days till I can just waller them to no end and they are like a statue half asleep.  Keep your hands still and low so that there is no confusion for her.
 
Then when you ask her to walk out wait till she comits to the mistake of trotting about 3 steps or so and imidiatly one rein stop her and flex flex flex till she is soft and thinking stop.  do this till she doesn't break gait consitantly and do it at the trot and then later at the lope.  Only after they are really soft and listening do I start really stearing.  Now when you ask for a turn keep your hands fairly close to the saddle and don't lead her into the turn so much and just lay your inside leg on as well.  Keep her tucked fairly tight here and more than likely she will jump to a trot but just hold her in the circle with leg pressure, don't bump her or anything with you legs just steady pressure and wait till she walks then let her out of the circle.  It will be a faster walk but as long as she doesn't break into a trot let her walk out for a bit and then do it again.  THe idea is for her to be able to distiguise between you bumping with your leg and hands for movement and simply having your legs on her. 
 
If you have time do this for 3 days in a row and let me know how your doing and I'll help you move on from here.  After a week straight of this I think you'll see a big difference in her whole outlook on being rode.

Thank you so much for all the great information.  I feel I have made some progress but I didn't think about letting her trot then correcting with some circling. The trot she picks up on her own is a very nice slow jog and wish I could get her to repeat it when I do ask for the trot.
 
When I do get on her I do make her stand for several minutes and pet her neck and ears but she still stands their stiff, with her head in the air and her ears back waiting for me to make a move. I do move around in the saddle but I will try flexing her neck and jump around on her a bit.
 
I am riding her in a very light Bosal and she seems to like it and I feel like I have more control than in a snaffle bit.  She likes to lean in towards the gate each time we pass it and the other day I carried a crop and gave her a light tap on her shoulder and AWAY WE WENT. Same thing happened when I got tired of correcting her walk and gave her a sharp jerk, off we went again. I don't make a big deal out of anything she does, we just go back to what we were doing and she calms back down.
 
She is a challenge but I really think she as some potential besides having babies.
 
I will keep you posted and see how it goes. The weather has been crummy so I have not rode her in 2 days and it doesn't look like today is going to be any better. One question I just thought of, how long should you work a horse in the arena or pen? I do about 15 minutes on the lounge line and about 45 minutes on her back.
 
Thank again,
 

That depends on the horse and what I was working on that day.  When  I am trying to get the general things down like stay soft at the circle, walk when cued, trot and things like that I won't quite till they are relaxed and quiet.  Say for example if I have been working on getting a colt to just follow his nose at the trot and stay soft, that might be all I work on is getting the colt quiet and soft in the face.  It might take 30 inutes it might take an hour and half, I just don't know but till they do it at least twice relaxed I won't quit.  I might have to move on to something else that they already know for a few minutes if they are getting confused then go back to it.
 
If the horse already knows how to walk and trot and I am trying to get them to slow down then I don't stop till they are relaxed and moving at least a bit slower.  Like the mare we have now is just horrendous at a trot.  Its a buggy trot if you ask me and just jars the dickens out of me but I keep her moving and we do serpentines and circles.  After a circle I let her out and wait till she starts trotting fast again then bring her back to a tight circle.  The reason I am not stoping her and waiting for her to calm is that is what she thinks will happen.  She thinks if she trots too fast I will stop her and it will be over for the day wich is what her owner did.  I need her to wonder how long we are going to be out there doing it.  ONe day it took every minute of an hour and half and yesterday it only took 20 minutes undersaddle.
 
Hope that helps.  If she takes off and races around the pen you might even let her race around the pen until she slows like you do on the ground wait till her feet stop.  There are many things to try so don't give up and stay safe.

Update on todays adventure. I rubbed  and slapped her blanket all over her body, over her head ect. and she wasn't frightened at all. After saddling her I banged the stirrups against her side and she just stood their. When I banged hard on the saddle she did move away from me but wasn't all excited about it.
I took her in to the arena and lounged her for about 20 minutes, she seems to be relaxed although she does want to tip her head to the outside of circle going to right, she also does this when I am on her.
 
I did as you said when I got on her and she let me pat her all over but as soon as I tried to tip her head she got all excited and decided it was time to go. I stopped her and repeated patting her all over then I started swinging my legs with them in the stirrup. Whoa baby, she took off doing a jig. I tried several times and each time I got the same reaction, with a little crow hopping to boot.
 
The circleing her when she went in to a trot helped a lot but a couple of times she did get mad and did some crow hopping and a little jig.  After we had the walk down for several circles I asked for a trot, which is so dang rough that it wears me out. She canl do a nice little jog that is pretty comfortable but she won't hold it. By the end of our session she was walking out nicely. She has always had a great walk, almost like a T. Walker.
 
Also as I was saying earlier, she wants to tip her nose to the rail going to the right. I have been giving her a bump with my inside rein and that straightens her out for a couple of seconds. Is this what I should be doing? If she were not so sensitive I would be using my inside leg to push to the rail and use some inside reing as well.
 
Do you think she is too old to learn??? She has so much energy, she wasn't even breathing hard after apprx. 2 hours of walking and trotting. I'm whooped though. Hopefully the weather will be nice again tomorrow so I can ride her. I also have access to the desert and we did alot of trail riding last summer but when I took her out for a trail ride a couple of weeks ago she was spooky and wanted to jog/prance the whole time. Last summer she would just do a nice flat walk and spooked at nothing. I may be part of the problem since I let her run full out a couple of times. It was fun though.
 
Oh, and Happy Easter!

From what you just told me she isn't as spooky or sensitive as you think.  I would say it is a respect problem as she resents the fact you are slowing her down and actually asking her to work.  Circles are hard and when you stop her are you using both reins or just one?  I would only use one and the amount of force used to pick up would mirror the energy she was giving me.  Say I bump her with my legs without asking for forward motion and she humps up then the work would start.  I would put her into a tight circle and really make her hustle then stop her and while flexing her from side to side I would also be moving my legs a little but no clicking or kissing which means move.  If you lay a leg on her like you were saying to straighten her out and that caused her to hump up or fuss the leg would stay there but I would imidiatly bring that nose to my boot and make her work.
 
Picture it like this.  She's been to the trainer.  You rode her all last summer.  She knows the basics.  You went to school.  You know your ABC's.  If you refused to recite them to the teacher and got upset, would she say you had just insulted her and being rude or would she say you are just too sensitive.  Her hoping up like that tells me that she resents the fact you are actually asking her to do something.  Without seeing it I can't be sure but get ahold of some Clinton Anderson tapes.  If  she is to sensitive then he is the desensitzing king and it will only help her in the long run.

I think you probably hit the nail on the head, she just doesn't respect me and is angry she has to work. On my stop I'm using one rein and if she locks up her neck I use some outside leg right at the girth to keep her circleing.  I can't remember if I mentioned it but she will flex on the ground but not under saddle. She just gets all goofy.  She will also rear if put in a position where she feels she has no way out, so far she has only hopped as I don't give her an opportuntity to rear, I keep her moving forward when I feel a rear coming on.
 
This is all so strange since she was so calm when I first got her and after letting my step daughter ride her (who wants to be a trainer and thinks she is one) is when she got bad goofy. My step daughter would tye her head way down to the ground and lounge her till she felt she had given in, she would also tye her head to one side and (very tight) and Ginger would throw a fit and ended up on the ground several times. She was trying to make her submissive by force in my opinion. My step daughter would just laugh and say that she was (Ginger) was throwing a tantrum. That's about the time I sent her to a trainer because she was so scared and jumpy. The trainer I sent her to was extremely gentle with her and when I got her back with no change in her behavior.
 
So I think what you are telling me is to stop treating her like she is sensitive and make her work when she misbahaves.  I made sure we ended our ride on a good note, a nice flat calm walk. I sure have my work cut out for me.  I have started and trained 2 horses that I showed in open shows and did quite well but that has been over 25 years ago. I do remember that no one was allowed to ride the horses we showed.
 
There is a book I am reading about problem horses and one quote sticks with me. "Horses are slow to learn but fast to damage".
 
thanks so much and I will keep you posted, hope I am not being a pest.  Quiting right now is not an option, I hate being a quiter.

You said you were placing the outside leg on her to keep her circling, try using your inside leg and have her arch around your leg.  That will cause her to lift her inside shoulder and keep her body moving forward and around.  Using the outside leg is pushing her into the turn as though neck reining her causing her hindquarters to stay relativly still.  Try inside rein, inside leg and see if that helps.  As for the flexing if its not a respect issue ti could also be that she has a&nbspinched nerve in her back as she does it with no rider and refuses with rider.  When you say goofy what do you mean, rearing or just trying to bolt?  When on her don't try to get her to touch your boot but rather tip her nose a little and if her feet stay still let her out, but if she walks or trots keep her nose tipped like you were circling her and wait till she stops.  Try small steps and see if you can convince her that yes she can move her feet if she needs to but its easier to stand still.  Also try and work on getting her to yeild her hindquarters with you on her and her nose tipped.  It will help her stop rearing.
 
It sounds like she was trying to "Check" her around.    It isnt' something that is done lightly or by someone who doesn't know how.  It can be very useful at times when done properly and only after the horse has a good working understanding of how to give to the halter or bit.   Its also not to be used to force them to submit or tie them around or down short.  I wrote an article on here about the hows and whys of it a few years ago. 
 
Since she did it the wrong way ti will take some time to get her to understand what you are wanting.  The only thing you don't want to do is treat her like an abused or mistreated horse, give her a good leader to follow with rules and understanding and it sounds like you are on your way.  Good luck and keep me posted.

[quote=Suzieeq]


Also as I was saying earlier, she wants to tip her nose to the rail going to the right. I have been giving her a bump with my inside rein and that straightens her out for a couple of seconds. Is this what I should be doing? If she were not so sensitive I would be using my inside leg to push to the rail and use some inside reing as well.


I think you misread what I said. Was the above quote what you were referring to?
 
What I mean by acting goofy is she starts jumping sideways, she may crowhop a little bit or even try to rear, bottom line she is not happy and is heading towards the arena gate.  I get her stopped and settled down and then back to what we were doing. I don't punish her for it, should I?
 
She just doesn't want to relax when we are standing. Her head is up, her hears are back and any movement be it the rein or leg means its time to go. I'm not trying to get her to touch my boot, I would be happy if I could just lift the rein and have her stand still and drop her head. She will drop her head when I get her walking but as soon as I ask her to stop, the head goes up and her ears go back.
 
I think I have been trying to be her buddy just a little too much but she was so afraid of my every move that I felt I needed to gain her trust and now I think  she is taking advantage of that. What I think I am hearing from you is that I need to be a little more tough on her and make her work and stop taking her b.s.
 
 
 
 

Okay, we were talking about 2 different things on the circling.  Today when I had to circle and she tried to lock up I did use the inside leg and that worked great. One thing about trying to do this via computer is we don't always convey our meaning correctly.
 
She still does not want to stand and flex her neck under saddle but we just walked in a circle instead and she still does not want to relax, but I suppose that will come with time. All in all it was a good ride, she walked right out and I only had to correct her a couple of times. She has such a wonderful walk but that trot will be the death of me. We need to get a beat going on. Best get dinner going for my hubby, he hates horses but he doesn't put up a fuss  that I'm at the barn all of  the time. As long as I am happy.
 
Rabbit trail: His first wife is/was really in to Saddlebreds and spent a bloody fortune on them so it left a bad taste as far as horses are concerned.

I have an 8 year old mare that used to come unglued if you looked at her funny.  She had been trained by the Amish and her mission was "find out what she wants and DO IT!"
 
I read all through this thread, and found out our horses share a common name.  What is it with "Ginger"
 
My mare needs constant de-sensitization.  I can trail ride anytime, spring, summer or fall, but when spring rolls around she needs de-sensitization to be safe.  Like, today I spent an hour just trying to walk up to her right side.  She has always turned her butt to me, but stands and drops her nose into the halter, so we've done it that way until today.  That might change.  I found out I can just stick to her right shoulder, walk towards her and she will circle and finally stop.  I even lead her without a halter - walking on her right side at the end of the session.
 
The other part, being dis-respectful, I don't have any of those kind of issues.  In the past though I have had problems getting her to go quietly along the rail.  My riding instructor helped me work on that, we did a lot of circles to correct and a lot of half halts.  I do not ride Western so trying to get a western jog isn't on my agenda.  I just want a nice collected trot.
 
Anyway, the more groundwork you do, especially this time of year is to your benefit.  In fact, I often do more groundwork than I do riding.
 
HERE is another thought.  I had problems with dismounting, she would jump away from me, and my foot would sometimes almost get caught in the stirrup.
 
Turned out she needed de-sensitization from ABOVE.  It was the shadow, or movement of me in the saddle that was scaring her.  I tied her up, and just got on and off both sides...waved my arms when I was in the saddle and did as much as I could from ABOVE her.  Then I could dismount no problem.  Jumpy horses are usually jumpy for a reason, we just have to get inside their heads.

Having had quite a few horses I think I would rather have one that is hypersensitive than the one that you can't get to lope a circle once without breaking in to a trot.
Ginger and I are doing better. She is flexing at the poll with a nice soft face, is doing a pretty good jog trot and I have loped her a couple of times and she jumps right in to the lope from a walk and its a nice slow lope as well.
 
I'm still working on her to let me swing my legs around on her without getting all goofy. Yesterday as I did this I petted her as well and she actually stood there but was very tense. When I was riding yesterday I reached up and tried to pet her head and she acted like someone had took a club to her which may have very well happened since she likes to rear up. So we need to work on that as well.  I cut our lesson short because she was caughing, at first I thought it was the dust but I don't think that was causing it. Someone just brought in a new horse a few days ago and it has a cough, I hope she didn't catch something.
 
Trainer you have been a great help to me. I have been doing lots of reading and watching video's. Seems like everyone has a different opinion when it comes to training so I am just picking and choosing what sounds reasonable to me.
 

Thanks hun.  The more ideas you have the more you can blend them together into something you can really use.    Good luck with her and keep us posted.

I'm curious about something...she doesn't like overt cues...does she do what you want her to without them? (pointing nose where it doesn't belong aside)
 
Some horses are extremely sensitive, and sometimes they will respond to your body position and the direction your head is pointed and where your hands are more than anything you do with your legs. I've been on horses you didn't really touch with your legs.
 
Other than that I'd say take her on some  long trail rides and see if that brings her down a little. She might not be so keen once she's been worn out a couple of times.
 
 

Yes she does respond very well with a little rein and the shift in body direction but she still needs to be able to tolerate any leg movement without going nuts.. For instance I need to teach her to to about on the forehand and about on the haunches as well as sidepassing in a controled manner while standing in one place and taking one step at a time correctly but when I try to use my leg to move her legs around she gets excited and rears and jumps sideways.
 
 I think she should be able to stand and let me move my legs about without thinking she is supposed to TAKE OFF. She shouldn't move forward until I cluck, kiss or whatever.I feel I need to be able to control all of her body independant of each other and she just overreacts and gets all "cattywompis" on me.
 
I have taken her out in the desert twice this year and she did well but still a handful and last summer that's about all I did was ride her in the desert and she was fine, I think it was when I started working her in the arena that made her upset. All of the sudden she had to work and think about things instead of meandering along and looking at the scenerie (sp).
 
She has a cold or respretory (sp) infection right now and the vet came down and put her on antibiotics for 5 days. (Does this thing have spell check)
 
I am riding her in a light Bosal and she does well in it, is there any reason I should get her in to a snaffle? Its been so many years since I showed I can't remember if you had to show in a bit. I know they have snaffle bit furturitys and I have seen reining horses in hackmores as well. I don't know if I will show her or not, that's quite aways down the road.
 
hey Trainer how are you doing?