exuberant trotter

Harness horses are frequently walked with a chain over their nose.  Lead shanks and lounge lines can be purchased with them.  If they don't respect a sharp jerk on the line, the chain can be placed under the upper lip for more control.  It sounds rough, but pressure and release usually works.  I have used knotted rope training halters with success when a horse wanted to bully me.  There is such a thing as a walking bit that snaps onto a halter.  These are sometimes called stud bits.  Having someone with more stregnth work the chain lead might be a good idea.  Once he respects it, he might respect you more.

This is something that I would suggest you get help on.  If there is a trainer in your area that could help you teach him to lounge properly then the pulling back will stop.  The problem of always increasing the pressure is that they become dull to it over time as you saw with the bit.  His pulling problem is a lack of respect for the pressure on his nose and most likely everytime you up the pressure, bit , chain or anything like that he pulls back and gets pain but his release is when he gets away and can take off.  He doesn't know that coming to you gets the same release just yet.
 
I would almost treat this as though he were a weanling just learing how to lead.  I'm just telling what I would try if he were to come to me for training as I have had a few do this with their owners as they tried to lead them from the trailer to the barn.  you said that you had worked in the arena a bit and that he had pulled you everywhere in there but the round pen worked fine.  The round pen shortens a horses view of things..its like loping one in the arena and loping one out in the open, there is a boundary in the arena but nothing in the open.  It sounds like his mind is working like this in the arena.  He thinks the release is in running away from you when coming to you is the key.
 
Take him back to the arena and get a good rope halter and long lead line, yachting line is what I prefere, less likely to burn your hands or him should he get tangled up.  (had it happen before).  Now you are going to step to the side of him and give a good hard pull till he steps over and toward you, then release and rub.  You want to be far enough over to the side that he HAS TO STEP ACROSS on the front.  Just like training a horse to lead.  Keep doing it till he moves with just a light tug on the line.  From there I would work on getting hindquarter control.  Step to the side with his head bent to you and with either the end of the lead or a training stick whack his hinny if he doesn't move but go back and rub after he gets it right.  Most horses that are not soft in the face will instinctivly pull away the first coupld of times till you make it absulutly clear that they have to move the hind over to get a release of pressure.  I have had them run sideways with me, rear up or just flat out lock up before finally getting it.  This is where I suggest having someone there who knows how to do this and can instruct you properly.  When he gets this down pat he will be able ot understand how to lounge better.
 
From there I would work everyday on lounging and constantly bothering him to give me his face and yeild his hindquarters, but when you do this it is important that each time you send him away that you bring him back in and give him a good rub.  This teaches him to respect what you are saying and doing but that his only release is to COME TO YOU not run away.  You will be amazed what a difference it will make undersaddle as well when he gets soft.  I suggest Clinton Andersons DVD on Roundpenning and Gaining confidence on the Ground tapes, Craig Cameron's back to basics is a good one as well as both of them are easy to understand and go into detail about why and how the horse is behaving.
 
Good luck and stay safe.  There are some training articles on here that might help you a bit as well. 

Thanks, Connie, and trainer, for the fast reply.
I guess I have to explain a bit more about him. He came from a man who "is the only one who can lead this horse out to the paddock", so he never learned correct behaviour. And he was lead, as Connie said, with leadshank and Chiffney bit. And with the chain through the mouth and under the lip. That only led to a bleeding mouth in one case and a former owner even more macho......
I thought I had it cured the first year, with my carrot treatment, he went in fine, waited to be unhaltered, took his carrot and took off. The trigger for this now dangerous behaviour was him bolting off, me not being able to hold on, letting him go. And bam, there he had learned that he can get away if he pulls hard enough. That's why strong men can hold him. I sometimes don't even try anymore, since he hurt me before, just try to get him IN the paddock, since he also tries to take off about 50 meters before, depending on when he was out last. The backing up way before the paddock gate helps a lot, gets his mind off the running a bit. He is not really trying to get away from me, he's just so full of energy that he can't hold back long enough I think, just has to go, go go. On the way to the paddock he does some antics, too, jumps back and forth, circles, snorting and blowing, tail up, but he doesn't try to get out of hand. And for some reason I hold on to him no matter what . Maybe because I know I CAN'T let him get away, it's dangerous.
 I think it's not so much the horse, it's me who has to get over the letting him go phase and just hold on to him. He's just taking advantage of my weakness. He's a supersmart horse who does something new, and the second time it's already a habit. I was actually thinking about putting up some kind of a little holding pen in front of the paddock, 12 x 12 ft, put him in there first, unhalter, THEN open the gate towards the paddock. Maybe that breaks the habit of bolting off?
I do lead him now with a snaffle bit, lead rope slung through the inside bit ring, not through both rings, and not hooked up and fairly loose and when I have to pull, it's a short jerk and he comes around with his head towards me. Matter of fact, most of the way out, after a day in anyway, he walks with his head and neck towards me, two tracking with his hind end.
 After all his jerking and pulling, and of course, hurting himself, he still takes the bit eagerly and is soft in the mouth, gives nicely to very little pressure.  
I titled the threat "exuberant trotter", because that's what he is a bit exuberant and anticipating. He also needs, in my opinion, a herd. I have a small one, but with a laminitic mare, and the poor girl would get hurt with all the running and playing he will cause. He's. by the way, very friendly with other horses, I never seen him pulling ears back. He's always asking for wither scratching, plays with me out in the paddock, hide and seek and such stuff. I make it a point to initiate it, of course, and frequently have to put him in his place.

I have Standardbreds and they are SOOO smart and willing, for the most part.  They don't forget anything - which is good AND bad.  One was neglected and starved - no telling what else he's been through, but he's quite disgruntled.  He really has no need for affection or human bonding.  He's had just about enough of humans I think.  When he first came to us he would put his nose to the ground and walk off, dragging us behind.  ONE thing was to get rid of the flat halter and put him in a knotted rope halter but honestly, I had to just get on him tougher. (not saying that will work for yours)  I had to learn him better.
 
How much paddock do you have?  If you have a managable size, like no more than a couple of acres,  I think this is something that might be a good exercise.  You have to do some running though, but it's very effective. 
First let me ask if he's easy to catch? If not, this will help there, too.
Second, do you have a training stick w/string?  You can use a lunge whip but the stick is a bit more controllable.
Be sure he likes the stick.  Rub it on him all over, sling the string up over his neck and pull it off his neck slowly (like his mama's tail when he was a baby) So be sure he isn't seeing a weapon in your hand, just an extension of your arm which is a nice thing.
OK- The theory is like a giant roundpen but it's the paddock.  I would take the lead line off so he doesn't step on it.  Just the halter.  With stick/whip in one hand, inside paddock, other hand on halter, lead him.  The moment he starts dragging you or walking off, let go and move him out, either with voice command "YAH!" or "GO" and/or a swat on the butt with the string for emphasis.  Make him run.  Point your free hand in the direction he's moving and drive him with the whip in the other hand.  It's fun to have him change and you swap hands so he gets the idea of moving where your hand is pointing.  Eventually you just point and they change themselves.  When I change mine or drive mine I crouch and focus hard on them with my attention.  Body language.  Keep him running until he asks you a question, turning his face full towards you, looking at you with both eyes.  (Be sure the older horse understands you don't expect her to move.  They catch on. BUT if they feel good, they will move anyway.  Just be sure no pressure is directed at her.)
Anyway, the second he gives you both eyes, drop your arms down and signal him to come to you. It might take a moment to register in his brain.  If he won't then move him a bit more (a trot is fine - I'm not talking galloping him into a lather).  He looks, you drop the pressure and call him in.  Keep doing it and eventually he will come to you.  But don't let him stop and stare off over the fence.  He needs to be moving or coming to you. 
If it takes a while, you might want to stop after he comes to you.  Next time he will come to you sooner.  But the idea is, once he comes to you, grab his halter and lead him.  If he pulls, which he probably will, run him.  Make him move his feet.  Practice in the paddock and see if he doesn't catch on that pulling means work. 
After you see the lightbulb come on (he finally GETS it) and he's progressing, then take him out with a lead rope that will enable you to do a little on-the-spot work if he pulls.  I'd take that stick and swat his chest, make yourself big wave your free arm make scary noises and back him up really quickly for about 3 - 5 seconds.  Stop - pressure off, let him stand there and think about what he's done. [] Don't move and he will probably lick and chew.  Stroke or two down the forehead and turn away and lead him off.  After he goes a bit praise him BIG.  Lead off again. 
Having said all this - and hoping I don't time out and lose this.... my grumpy boy has gone blind.  But before he did, I did this with him.  I do it any time my horses turn away when I go to get them.  He responded VERY well but it took a long time and a lot of running on MY part.  But you don't want to let them stop and stand.  Keep them moving - they don't like too much of that.

Hmmm..........You know, I've been working him a bit in the paddock. When he had his "5 minutes", as I call it, wanting me to play with him. I did roundpen work with him right in the paddock, and he never ran off, actually, I stopped him, turned him, he even turned towards the inside......and I do back him before we go in the paddock, also once we're in a few steps. I do have to work to keep him concentrated on me, all he has on his mind is taking off. I never had a stick or whip with me, yet. I was thinking about it, tho. Not to hit him, but more as a psychological aid...maybe even more for me than for him.
He does come every time, have no problem catching him. In fact, I have no problem catching any of my horses. Carrots do work wonders[]
  oh, he did try once, wanted to play, I had the halter almost on him, and he slipped out and took off, tail straight up. And wouldn't come no more, wanted to play. So I left him and took my other three, who are in the paddock next to his. When I came back, he tried to put on the halter himself, I swear. The next evening he just suggested he could take of while I was haltering him, so I just turned around, and there he was "take me take me"....
The most critical time is when we're in the paddock, he needs to turn around and needs to wait to have the halter, or as of now, bridle taken off. That's when he pulls away, and hard too. I'm convinced he learned that, when the guy who was the only one wo could lead him,, see post above, had him, He was taken out, pulled away, and got smacked on the butt hard with the lead rope. So maybe he thinks running away is the better option...
 
It's amazing what they actually can tell us with their behavour. Quite a lot of what has happened to them.
 If he wasn't such a good boy in all other aspects I would have long sold him, infact, I threaten him with that every now and then...and lo and behold, he's an extra good boy then. Until I have really decided to keep him........go figure[]
 I will do some work with him, once my paddocks are dried out. Right now we're a bit flooded.
Thanks Hunter
 

now that I know how to downsize my pics, I thought I'd show you guys the problem child.
The young man riding him is about the only one who is a) strong enough to hold him going to the paddock and b) also the only one who understand Fosco and doesn't try to do things with sheer force.

Here's some news from the exuberant trotter:
 Since it's been raining and raining, and just when it started to dry out, it started raining again,I decided to take Fosco and work him a bit in my fenced in yard. First time out he was a rocket, hopped in all kinds of directions, backed up, dove away, did anything he could think of to try to get free. So I tried the back up thing. It worked wonders. The first time he almost fell, it surprised him so much. The second time he backed, but after a while he tried to pull again. The third time I didn't even have to do anything, he backed by himself, and now he stops with his butt well under himself and doesn't pull anymore. He does so in the yard, on the way to the arena or round pen. We have yet to put him through the test in the paddock. In fact, the young man who is riding him in the pics, rode him bareback, just with a halter. First in the arena, then out around the place. So I guess we're on our way. The best thing is that Fosco really enjoys working!
Thanks to everybody for your suggestions and thoughts. I'll keep you updated

Wow, good job. I have to say, I'm not a big fan of trying to run horses until they don't want to run anymore...primarily because I get tired a lot faster than they do, and they condition up so quickly....a horse that is misbehaving is a lot more dangerous if he also has lots of stamina. I learned this when learning about cutting horses....those horses are so finely tuned, they try to keep them JUST in good enough shape that they can do what they have to do because otherwise, there's no controlling them.
 
We had a horse once that would pull the same thing out in the pasture when trying to lunge him....he'd hit the end of the rope and keep going, the poop. He was a big strong guy, too. I finally decided I didn't need to lunge him in the pasture, and we ended up selling him because I wasn't really very interested in getting on him, either. He was kinda scary, and I was kinda young. I'd be even less inclined to mess with him now I'm not kinda young.
 
But I wish I'd known about the backing up thing then, I'll bet that would have worked. Or he might have struck me in the grape and that would have been the end of that. (He was that sort of guy).

[quote=AllieBaba]
Wow, good job. I have to say, I'm not a big fan of trying to run horses until they don't want to run anymore...primarily because I get tired a lot faster than they do, and they condition up so quickly.... 


I must not have explained it well because it's not a principal of running horses until they don't want to run anymore.  BUT sometimes it feels like that!  I've had a couple of LOOOONG sessions but, at the end, the horse is following me over to where the halter lays and is putting his face into it for me.

I've never heard of not wanting a horse in the best condition possible but I don't know much about cutting horses..... okay I know NOTHING about cutting horses.

desert, YAY for your trotter!!!  He's so pretty!  I missed the pics.  Morgan influence there, I believe.

I didn't explain myself well, either, lol. It isn't so much that they don't want them in excellent condition...they have to be. But while in TRAINING, they don't want them in such good condition that they never wear out.
 
I've been to some cuttings, and it truly is something to behold...all these top dollar, exceedingly well trained horses...and a number of them in the warmup ring are bucking and crowhopping and in general feeling their oats. They're horses with minds of their own, they have to be, and because of that, you have to be able to bring  them down to work without it taking 5  hours of loping circles to do it (at least that's the way the trainer explained it to me).
 
Whenever I hear someone talk about the virtues of the quiet, docile Quarter Horse I have to chuckle to myself, because although they certainly are out there, my experience with them has been that you have to tread VERY carefully with them and treat them wtih a lot of respect, and certain lines will fight literally to the death if you're too stubborn to take a different approach if they don't like the tack you're taking.

Thanks, Hunter and Allie,
Morgan influence...hmm, could be. He also has a good portion of Arabian blood, or maybe he's been hanging out and talking too much to my Arabs.....He's for sure not the typical Standardbred. Not looks, and also not movement.
 
 I was trying to NOT run him until he runs out of air and then some. I know that would just make him stronger, and then what would I do. The backing up thing worked wonders, really. And he caught on sooo fast. The first time I did it, I acted like I wanted to eat him alive, right then and there. And I guess he bought it. Second try to get away was rather weak. And now he stops wonderfully, almost sitting on his but. Nice side effect[].
As soon as this beautiful mediterranean weather here decides to be like it is supposed to be in spring, we'll take him to paddock and put him to the test.
I noticed that I trust him now, which I didn't before, I mentioned that it might be partially my fault. Now I gotta just get on him, I haven't had the heart just yet. I was close today, tho..........I guess with age a woman gets a bit more careful................[]

He will be your new favorite horse!  They're so wonderful!

If he's on the lunge another less exhuberant way of getting a horse to back up is to just use your thumb and press against the point of their shoulder (in the chest, not the withers, lol, don't know what that might result in but it could be interesting). This also works spectacularly for youngsters who are crowding you, btw.
 
Keep posting, I find this really interesting!

Oh, I tried the pressure thing with him, since he had no clue about it. Nearly broke my finger. He's been leaning into pressure[]. He eventually got it, tho. As preparation for the leg aids he doesn't know yet.
 One really nice thing happened yesterday. The young man who's helping me with Fosco (in other words he does the dirty work, lol), has a TB mare. She is one ignorant horse sometimes. Behaves really well under saddle, but in hand she is really a pain. Now that he, Nicola, saw, what the right groundwork does to a horse, he's starting to work his mare that way too. First step was using my rope halter today to take her out, since she can be quite pushy.
 Here we're talking a 17 hand horse who pulls you all over the place to get some grass, rubs her head on you, hard, too, steps all over you, nips. He is now starting to not take this behavior no more. Before it was normal for him that a horse does that. The mare is not mean, she just learned that she can get away with it and takes advantage of it.
I'll let you know how he progresses with her too, if you don't mind.