old unknown saddles

Those are both very nice saddles.  The first one looks like it was built in the 1960's, similar to the Buck Steiner and Saddle King saddles, but most Western saddles were built like that then - I am still riding in a mid-60's Saddle King saddle, they just don't make leather like that any more.   The smooth, nearly flat seat, low cantle, brass ring rigging (front and back) and cut, not stamped, leather tooling date this saddle well.

I doubt that the second one is true vintage.  The extremely high equitation-seat rise gives it away as a newer model, and the leather is not quite like what they used back in the day.  The way the stirrups are built is a modenr 'retro' look that has been in vogue for about 10 years.  It is a nice saddle, but lacks flank rigging alltogether - which says it was made for pretty, not work, and prior to the last 30 years most every Western saddle was built for work first and pretty second. 

Here's a pic of my old Saddle King saddle, the flank rigging is flipped up but you can see that it is attached with a brass ring just like the front.  Wish I had better pics.  This was a bear trap style saddle made for hard roping, long rides, and rough horses.  The saddle in your pictures  was a popular style for the time used in speed competition events that involved a fast dismount/remount, like team penning and steer roping.  It eventually morphed into the western equitation saddles seen today. 

(edit) at closer look that saddle really has Buck Steiner style to it, with the CHeyenne roll cantle and the narrower spacing between front and back rigging rings.  The rigging rings are stainless steel, not brass (which Saddle King used in that era), another Buck Steiner trademark.  Here is a website with good shots of a Buck Steiner saddlehttp://www.drivinghorses.com/forsale_harnesstack.html  scroll down a bit and you will see 4 pics.  The Buck Steiner saddles have a stamp with his name either ob the seat or behind the cantle.

Thanks!
 
The triangular piece of leather which binds the skirts together behind the cantle also looks exactly like that on the Buck Steiner Saddle in that website, the slanted fork also looks similar, so i think it's very likely a Buck Steiner.
 
Are those saddles still built for narrow horses like the pre-war ones? my draft horse and Haflinger pony are both fine with the modern "semi quarter" bars.
 
Semi quarter horse bar saddles also fit my mule's withers reasonably well but my current saddle (a 1980s Big Horn roper) has a bit too much longitudinal sway in its bars and the cantle lifts up from the back when you cinch up the saddle, is this a sign that the saddle is likely to sore my mule's back?

On your saddle, if the back is lifting up when you cinch it, the saddle is too wide for the horse/mule and can cause sores if ridden long/hard but you can get away with using it for shorter rides.  Saddles that are too wide tend to rub in the equines's kidney area when you are sitting in them and put a lot of pressure on the forehand of the horse (all that downward motion going forward onto the shoulder). They can also put pressure on the spine of the horse under the cantle area.

I am placing my bets on the saddle being a Buck Steiner, I had an old Buck Steiner saddle with the stamp on the triangular piece of leather behind the cantle, just like you described.  It really looks like his style, and those saddles are indeed built for narrow horses, many poeple find that style of saddle works well on mules.  Be warned that the saddles are small, seat-wise, 14" Western, which translates to 16" English (somewhere around 40cm?). 

Anyhow, a Buck Steiner vintage saddle in good condition can esily catch $500 US dollars, probably worth a lot more over there since Western saddles are rare, and a gem like that is a true find.   Here's Roxy in my old Buck Steiner saddle, this is another bear trap style popular in its time. 

Here are some tools for a saddle that is too wide.  I am showing English pads first because they will be easy to find where you live, and can be placed right under the Western saddle tree, on top of another pad.    You may also consider center-fire rigging if it is a Western saddle with flank rigging, I posted a how-to under Tack&Supplies awhile ago.

This model will work well under a Western saddle and lift the saddle off of the forehand to balance out the fit and weight distribution
http://www.doversaddlery.com/product.asp?pn=X1-19456&zmam=1460880&zmas=1&zmac=66&zmap=X1-19456&re=viewbuyrec

here is the same thing by another company
http://www.doversaddlery.com/product.asp?pn=X1-19335&zmam=1460880&zmas=1&zmac=66&zmap=X1-19335&re=viewbuyrec

As for Western pads, if your saddle is too wide you really want to look for good spine clearance.  There are many pads on the market today that have extra padding under the bar of the saddle and a thin area over the spine, this is what you want - and if you combine that with one of the riser pads above, you might get a nice fit.

Here is an example of the Western style pads I am talking about:
http://www.horse.com/item/justin-performance-pad/WIB10/
http://www.horse.com/item/reinsman-tacky-too-navajo-trail-pad/SLT901606/

A favorite fix-all of mine is this specific pad:

http://www.horse.com/item/smx-air-ride-orthosport-saddle-pad-round/SLT735522/

It has some lift behind the shoulder to keep a too-big saddle off the forehand, also helps resolve problems with a narrow saddle pinching the shoulder or not fitting well behind the wither.

My mule, like most Italian pack mules, has been foaled by a Bardigiano mare (a breed of small haflinger-like draft horses) and so he's quite stout, wide backed and mutton withered compared to the modern saddle mules you have in the US which are foaled by quarter horses or other saddle breeds.
 
As a result, my Big Horn saddle fits him reasonably well, but it's a bit on the narrow side if anything. 
If the old Buck Steiner is narrower than my 1980s Big Horn, it's not going to fit on any of my horses...

The Buck Steiners are very narrow!  No-Go for wide ponies!  But oh what a pretty saddle it is!

I stumbled upon a saddle that fits one of my Hafligners PERFECTLY and is not too far off the mark on the others, but you might not find one on the other side of the pond.  It is a Western saddle built on a Wide Walking Horse tree (or wide gaited horse saddle).  Several saddle makers use this tree.  It is not as wide as a full draft bar but wider in the shoulder than a full quarter horse bar. 

The saddle tree is made by Steele Equi-Fit, it is model #PW.  Some of the companies who use the saddle tree are:  Dakota Saddlery, Dixieland Saddles, Big Horn, and GW Crate.  Specifically, the saddles are advertised as either an 8" or 8 1/4" gullet.  Big Horn advertises it as a wide gaited horse saddle with 8 1/4" gullet.  It is all the same tree underneath.

After having a saddle built in a 7" draft tree and comparing it to the different Haflingers, the draft tree is a little too wide while the wide walking horse tree fits the most horses (I have 3 Haffies) the best.

Good luck in the eternal saddle search -!  I am really lucky to have at least one saddle that fits one Haffie perfectly!

Well, i finally bought the older saddle, the price was right @ 200eu and was just a few miles from where i live.
 
This seems to be a well built saddle, the front and rear strings are actually going all the way through the saddle and are visible in the fleece below, the tree is bullhide covered so the saddle is amazingly heavy for its size, and the hand tooled floral pattern is deep and beautiful 
There are no makers marking anywhere i can see
 
It's VERY used, this saddle has thousands of miles on it,
As you can see in the&nbspic there's a spot in the front jockey where the leather is perished and has a crack, do you think it's possible to stitch or glue it together? will it get longer if i just leave it alone and ride the saddle?
Apart from that, it's still solid and in good conditions, the leather is still soft and the fleece is all still there.
 
The stirrup leathers are 3" wide and fitted with Blevin buckles, i'm not sure if the Blevins are original to the saddle.
 
The gullet is 7" wide measured between the conchos, so it's not that narrow, hopefully it will fit decently on my mule, i'll try that tomorrow.
The seat is 16" so it's just the right size for my big butt!
 
This saddle was probably an used saddle imported from the US when Western riding boomed in Italy in the early 70s and new western saddles weren't widely available yet.
Today, unlike other European countries, most Italian trail riders use Western saddles, the traditional Italian Maremma saddle is rarely seen around and English saddles are usually confined to show jumping clubs.
 
Enjoy the pics!

 

 

 
The perished/cracked spot

 
 
 
 
 
 

That is sure a beautiful saddle, cracks and all.  The cinch rigging is 'full, in-tree double rigging' and you can center-fire rig a saddle that is built this way.  I sure hope it works for your mule and you both.  As long as there are no deep cracks in the cinch rigging or stirrup leather and fenders then you don't need to worry.  Just keep the leather lightly oiled and out of the rain.

This saddle seems to fit my mule reasonably well, i'm no saddle fit expert but i know that you shouldn't have more than than 4 stacked fingers between the withers and the gullet, and this saddle's withers clearance is a bit less than 4 stacked fingers.
 
The cantle lifts up about 2" when the saddle is cinched up, is this still acceptable for trail riding at walk only or maybe i'm going to sore my mule this way? 
 
 i'll post some pics of the saddle on my mule as soon as it stops raining.
 
Anyway, if you look closely at my pics there seems to be the shape of a Tex Tan Hereford logo stamped on the fenders, maybe Tex Tan didn't put their brand on this saddle and sold it at discount due to some imperfections? the horn is a bit off center for sure.

Still waiting for those pictures....!   Would love to see some of the saddle on your mule without a pad, full side view, front shoulder view, and view from the tail looking towards the ears.  Then we could see if any particular pad or shim might help fill in the gaps.

Here's the saddle on Nero:

It is just a touch wide, but that saddle is in great shape, somebody has replaced the fleece with nice, new fluffy stuff.  I would seriously try one of the pads I posted earlier, that puts a little lift under the front, and even better yet you could make shims like I did for Sweet P's saddle out of a sacrificed Cashel Tush Cush (They are about $30 in the US).  I am willing to bet that of you placed them under the lower part of the bars in the front, with the tapered end running up towards the gullet, you would get a pretty good ride for Nero and you both.

edit:  I would also center-fire rig that saddle, this alone would help keep the cantle end lower and put better weight distribution over the ribcage

This saddle has a real sheepskin fleece lining which seems to be original, it's actually worn bare in a few spots and the stitching looks original too.
 
Sadly, the fleece is just about the best part of this saddle: i tried to ride the saddle for about a half hour at walk only and the whole thing began to fall apart... when i came back home i was horrified to see a new crack starting on the right hand fender near the hobble strap, also the stitching of the rear right hand tree pocket is failing
 
I was&nbsplanning to have the old crack on the seat jockey stitched and reinforced but now after seeing the fender cracking apart in a little quiet ride i think the leather on this saddle has really outlived its lifespan and any attempt to stitch its cracks may result in creating more fracture lines across the stitch holes.
 
since i got this saddle for cheap, and i love the way it looks, i guess it's still a nice antique to keep as a display piece in my living room
 
It's a bit sad as i think it was a decent fit for Nero and its seat was just right for me too... well, luckily Nero is VERY comfortable to ride bareback so i guess maybe that's what my karma wants me to do for the rest of my life!