General Cane Updated (5/22) - General Chat - General Chat - Horse Community, Horse Pictures, Horse Forum and Information

Posted : 5/5/2009 12:25:11 PM

Since some of you probably missed it I will post the update and all the history. I would love ideas, but honestly can not take any harse critiques right now--please be nice.

Let me just start from the beginning. In November of 2006 I bought my dream horse an unbroke 3 yr old gelding (Smart Chic O'Lena Grandson). He had all his ground work done, was good around kids and a giant baby doll. He needed training and I figured it would be best to get that done over the winter. He was in North Dakota and several people recommened a trainer in Minn. and the current owner was willing to haul him there for me. So he went there. I did my research and this person was an AQHA prof. horseman, holds a couple of judges cards, etc.

I called every 3 weeks for an update and sent my money religiously to make sure all costs were covered. He came home to me in April of 2007 and that is when I knew something had happened. He had a old junk halter that the shipper threw away (he was sent with a brand new one to the trainer) and he had a girth fungus that was nasty. When I first rode him to get on or off him was a project as he would fly sideways. So we worked on that. Then he was so heavy moving on front you had little to no control, so we were working on that. Mind you I hit the ground once with him during this. Then in July of 07 he threw me, it was my fault as I should have known better than to ask for a lope. I ended up really banged up with a dislocated shoulder. I had a person I trust come and ride him to keep him going. Later that summer he got hurt, hubby's fault and had 6 weeks off.
Later that fall I started to work him again with ground work and light riding on his back. He has always been sensitive and a horse you can not get agressive with on his back (thanks to trainer from h@$$). May 2008 he injured that ankle and we spent all summer and fall recovering that, and he was on extensive stall rest, which I do not think helped.
So this spring I sent him to a dear friend whom I trust with him. She understands his training issues and his leg issues.

TRAINING UPDATE: Leg is holding up great and he can take pretty much regular work, just no full gallops to sudden stops, but he does those in the pasture, dork. He is very, very, very, very nervous undersaddle, bareback, english saddle, western saddle, basically if you are on his back. If he spokes it is an across the areana and back kind of spoke, not anything like a normal horse would do. You can have great rides on him, but you can feel him being tense, like he is just waiting for the other shoe to drop. He has settled some, but not much. It is an issue as to how safe he will be for me to ride. Right now, taking him on a basic trail ride through the woods could be a life in your hands type of adventure.

So I guess that is it in a nutshell for now. We are going to see how he does with more work over then next couple of weeks. Right now he is worked twice a day for about 40 mins. and it will be uped to a hour each session. He gets two days on, one day off and is turned out (which he loves).

Thanks for listening.

trainer101

Posted : 5/5/2009 12:42:02 PM

Tanya I was so in hopes that he would calm down once in a routine. I'm glad his leg is holding though. What are your plans should he not settle down? I want you to be safe and enjoy a great trail ride but I want you to be happy too!!!

I went to work yesterday and when I came back this new site had appeared so I missed what was happening, I just knew you sounded awful upset. I hope she can bring him around for you. Keep us postd on whats happening.

TanyaC97

Posted : 5/5/2009 1:48:52 PM

trainer- I do not know what will happen if he does not settle down. I just read an article in H&R from Stacey Westfall about knowing when it is not working out, it hit home really hard.

Here are my options if he does not settle in:
Keep him as a pasture pet, then in a few years I will have two pastures pets and not be riding.
Try to find him a companion home- but is someone willing to take him on with his supplement requirements? Will they keep him or run him through an auction? I could not live with myself if he ended up in the wrong hands.
Love him up this summer and put him down this fall. Waste of a horse who is only 6, but I would know he is not being harmed and know I did all I could for him-but I would second guess myself forever.

mandisue

Posted : 5/5/2009 2:10:49 PM

    You've really been through it with him. Wish I could wring that trainers neck. Did you try to get anything against him or is it no use???
    As far as someone else taking him as a pasture pet, you would have to have a contract but even then it's sometimes iffy. Do you have any of those places up there that take, like retired race horses etc and give them a home where they are just pasture horses? I know there are a couple places like that, not many but a couple.

    Well at least you have Jakie.   Big hugs !!!!

HGPaints

Posted : 5/5/2009 4:03:27 PM

Tanya, I am very sorry that you had to go through this. I manage a rescue barn which has an amazing retraining program started by my trainer. We work with horses like Cane all the time. Like you, we have no idea what happened to them, but can only guess by what they show us. Your concerns about his future are valid, as we always say all of the rescue horses become rescue horses for a reason, it is our job to restart the horse from scratch, figure out the issue that made them become rescues in the first place, and then adopt them out into good homes.

If I were in your place, I would scratch the riding for the time being and start him over from the beginning. The first thing needed is to gain control of his mind. With the rescues, we usually have physical issues to keep in consideration as well, so our initial program to gain control of the mind and allow the horse to relax is very easy on them physically, unlike some of the NH techniques. After that, its a step by step process, teaching them slowly how to control their body and balance themselves properly before ever expecting them to carry a rider as well. They never move to the next step until they are completely calm, relaxed, and in the right frame of mind with the previous step.

This is not a fast process at all, it is very slow, yet very rewarding. A lot of people find it extremely slow in the beginning, but quickly realize "its the fastest way to get there". The biggest challenge is that the people who usually come for rescues are not equipped to deal with the baggage that comes with the horses. We try to over prepare the horses for the people adopting them.

He sounds like a beautiful horse, but from my past experience, it sounds like the problem may lie a little deeper than wet blankets. If a horse is in a "fearful" state of mind, it won't be learning. If he is constantly in that state when a person is on his back, then improving the state of mind will be hard. He won't get used to it because his mind will already be running away from the human when they get on his back. I would love to see him and figure it out. Too bad you are so far away. Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

theoldgreymare

Posted : 5/5/2009 5:12:01 PM

Tanya, have any physical issues been ruled out with him? I know this was probably covered in past posts but I haven't been around much and I can't go back and read about him now with the new forum. Sounds like one we have who is both hypothyroid and magnesium deficient. On his meds/supplement he is a solid citizen, without he can be a nut case. In truth, it does sound more of a training/mental issue that needs to be worked through with Cane but it is always worth it to have your vet rule out any health problems.

Kali K

Posted : 5/5/2009 6:10:27 PM

Tanya,,, HUGS and many prayers to you two. Just love him to death,,, poor guy. My husband is working with a 3 year old who had his mind BLOWN by a jerk who needs shot. Trust has been the biggest issue, he started just hanging out with him in the pasture. He now can hop on him bareback, just ahalter,,, but it has taken time,,,,

TanyaC97

Posted : 5/5/2009 6:24:17 PM

TOG-When we did spring shots this year I had him chiro.'d, teeth done, and x-rays of his injured ankle and both hind hocks. The vet went over him with a fine tooth comb and found nothing physical.

It is mental. I need to be able to admit when I am in over my head, how much more time I want to invest in this with him, what do I expect back in return. These are all things that run through my head.

What kills me is he will follow me off a cliff and do anything with me on the ground, as soon as you even attempt to get on his back he is scared to death.

And I did not go after the bad trainer. I did however not pay him the final $225. It was hard to not pay someone money I owed, but I figured I covered the cost of the care, but his time in my horse was what I did not pay for.

Thanks for the support guys, I really need it.

JetLagaside

Posted : 5/6/2009 12:41:13 AM

You two have been thru alot that's for sure! Time, time and more time ':)'

he trusts you on the ground now he needs to learn to trust you in the saddle and that's going to take some time.

hunterseat

Posted : 5/6/2009 1:56:08 AM

C'mon, Tanya! Get on U-ship and get a quote to ship him to HG's!!! I'll chip in for shipping! A little time in Florida will do ANYONE good!! [ ':D'

]

TanyaC97

Posted : 5/6/2009 12:37:41 PM

Hunt- I would love to ship him to HG, but if I am not there to work with him what will he be like for me?

I know time is time and it takes time to fix things. But at what point do I admit I am in over my head? When do I say I love him to death, but staying with me is not what is best for him?

Heck if he is going to FLA, then I would just wait until the end of school and haul him myself and make a trip out of it and visit some of you along the way with layovers.[ ':D'

]

JetLagaside

Posted : 5/6/2009 1:59:20 PM

[quote=TanyaC97]
I know time is time and it takes time to fix things. But at what point do I admit I am in over my head? When do I say I love him to death, but staying with me is not what is best for him?

Do you love him? I think that answer is pretty clear for everything you have done for him ':)'

He trusts you on the ground so that's step one, he's got a lot of fear to get over and it's going to take time love and patience. I've been there so I know. I know you can get thru this - your heart is in the right place and your already 1/2 way there! just my 2 cents.

shiver

Posted : 5/6/2009 2:27:16 PM

I'm going against the grain here. I'm not going to talk about how much you love him. I know that you do. I also know how much of a commitment you have made to this horse. But here is my 2 cents.

For 3 years you have been working to rescue and reabilitate this horse. You have spend hunred if not throusands of hours trying to correct someone else's mistake. You have loved him, worked with him and given him another chance. How much more do you do? I'm sorry to say it this way, but how much is he worth? That is really the altament question. If he is worth more to you then yes, keep trying! but if you feel you have given him all you have there is no shame in that. If you remember I wouldn't have done that surgery and you did. You have given him more chances than most of us would or could have afforded.

The disadvantage of talking about it here is you are on a horse board. Everyone can relate and loves there horses. But if you talked with someone else they would fall over knowing that you spent so much time and money on a horse. Neither OP is wrong. You are just getting byest OP's here. smile

If it was me, and I have been there, I would put him down. I would rather know that he was loved and cared by me than to give him to someone else and not know and have no control of the situation. In my OP we are to quick to not take the responsiblity to our pets and put them down than to re-home them. Horses are one of our pets that we expect to work for there living. Even if they only work four our pleasure. What I'm really trying to say here is. There is NO SHAME in putting him down. Do not let others make you ( even if unbenost them) feel guilty if you feel that is the best choice for you.

We are ALL here for you. No matter what the decition.

mandisue

Posted : 5/6/2009 5:18:26 PM

As Shiver said there may be reprocussions from what shiv said and I'm about to say as to other peoples opinions but I agree with her whole heartedly. I think we tend to forget, horses are livestock, always have been always will be. They are working animals. Now as Shiver said, if you want to keep him, and that's whats in your heart, then by all means, its your choice anyhow. BUT do you want to keep two horses that in a couple years you can ride neither of, and give up your goals of going to Congress in that new saddle, ( I think that's what you had told me..) or, find a decision that suits you and get a horse that you can ride and achieve your goals on. You have put A LOT of money and love and heartache into him. Ultimately only you know what decision is best for him and YOU. Big hugs dear and you know I'm here for you.

Harley Heaven

Posted : 5/7/2009 1:21:31 AM

Tanya I am so sorry for all the crud you and that poor boy are going through.
I completley understand not wanting to see him in the wrong hands. I had the same fear with Harley when I had to consider selling him for a lot of the same reasons. I got lucky somehwere along the line and the time spent with him paid off for me. Now it took three years for that time to pay off, and there were several times when I was convinced that the Morgan in him wanted to kill me.

I cannot tell you what to do, I can only speak from my experience. When I was nearly at my wits end with him I was seriously considering taking him to the state large animal rescue ranch. It eased my mind about them to go down & do some voulenteer work for them to see how they treated and worked with the animals in their care. My States rescue has a professional trainer on the payroll and I saw the results in several different horses whose situations ranged from having been rescued from a tractor trailor wreck whose final destination was a slaughter house to one horse whose braindead owner had decided that the way to geld him was to tie him to a 4 wheeler, drag him until he fell and then have several of his drunken buddies sit on the poor horse while he did the cutting. When the poor boy protested, he drug him with the fourwheeler down a paved road until shoulder bones and ribs were showing. That horse had a real fear of humans, and it was justified! (And the previous owner went to jail by the way)The folks at longmeadow Rescue Ranch healed him, turned him around and today he is calm around humans, takes a saddle and a bit and is learning to go through his gates.
I lucked out in the sense that I became friends with the trainer there who offed me a lot of insight into helping Harley calm down and learn to trust.
While I understand that Missouri is a long way to bring a horse to give him to a rescue operation, maybe your State has a similar facility that you could go to and look at, see how they treat the animals in their care as well as what their policies on adoption are. Then if you decide that you are in over your head you will know of a place where he will get the care he needs, the training to calm and teach him, and know that you did your best for and by him and yourself.

I greatly admire the work that the Rescue in my State does. Here is a link to their adoption policies and requirements. I know from my expeireince with them that they do follow them, as well as follow up on the adopted animals. http://www.longmeadowrescueranch.org/adopt.php

I love all of my horses and treat them very well. But the bottom line is that I have them to add to the quality of my families life and to ride. If push came to shove and for whatever the reason one became unsafe, dangerous, or it became obvious that I was in way over my head they would be gone. Yes, I'd agonize over the choice just as you are now, but in the end they would go.
My families saftey as well as my own has to come first.