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founder or being screwed

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founder or being screwed
  • I am trying to find out what are early signs of founder. Let me exsplain why. I had this guy come over and take one of my horses( i gave it to him) he was an old horse and I was fighting thrush and weight on him so I found some one to take him. Well this guy is a farrier and he wanted to look at all the other horses I have, Which is 3. So i let him look at them. He walks in the one stall of my 5 year old paint pony ( 13 hands) and Pick up her foot and say she is starting to founder. I say WHAT. I have never had a problem with her foundering and look fine to me. Then He looked at my 6 year old Appy who is severely club footed and barefoot. and claims he need corrected shoeing or he could brake his leg. Now i have had this horse all his life and he has lived with this this way. Then He got to my 2 year old pony and asked if I would sell him. I told him I never concidered it because he was born here. Then we bickered back and forth. Next he says he will trade me 8 months of farrier work on my paint pony who he wants to shoe after never been shoed before and correct shoe on my other and has 50/50 chance of be ridden. I feel like he was trying to screw me and make me feel like a bad mom to my horses and he could fix them and he was doing me a great big favor. Yes they need trimmed and were cracked and all but for foundering i just don't see it. what is your opinion on this? I told him know but He acted like he gets his way and would call authorities on my horses so he could get my one. My paint mare is a a little over weight but always has been. we like her that way. she is a stocky little chingcotigue pony we think. and for my appy who has an acute club foot a farrier made him the way he is today. He was born with the club foot but a bad trimming made him serverely lame and had to have surgery to even walk. So why should I trust him? ANd my 2 year old palomino stallion that he wants is not even broke yet.  Sorry for all the writing I guess I am still mad and need to vent. lol.
    Oh I see no signs of foundering. Here frog is a little soft but no soreness.
  • You go with your gut instinct.  It's there for a reason.  Why not consult a vet about the horses, maybe see if you can email pics to the vet?  Do you do your own trimming?  You might get them trimmed up a bit and be sure your barn is picked up and the horses have water etc in case he does call someone.  You probably do all that normally but I have to say I'd be embarrassed for anyone to come to my place at the moment!
  •  Thanks for info. all my horses are fat and health. My neighbor trims them and all waters are cleaned on a regular basic leaving 2 buckets per stall and 100 gallon troughs in field. My barn and the surrounding area is in great shape. I have had animal control out to my place a few times in the past and they always ask if i want to foster other horses. My gut tells me he was trying to timidate me in giving my horse to him in exchange of unnessary work done to my others. The have been barefoot for all these years and never had a problem. But i go back to original question about sure signs of foundering. I have read and read and I personally dont see the signs but maybe I am missing something. I did cut back on grain on my fat mare and moved her paddock so she is not getting as much grass. I guess I will see how she does in a few days.
  • I recently suspected some founder episodes in one of mine (long story, documented in the hoof section).  He was listless and did a little more laying down than normal for him... not much moving around but he has other issues - track injuries, etc.  I took him to the vet and the first thing she wanted to see was how he walked.  I walked him from the trailer straight to her which was some gravel and some grass.  She said he does NOT walk like a foundered horse.  I'm suspecting the feet would be quite painful and it would be easy to spot in their gait.  Another thing she did was a "pinch" test.  She took some clamp looking devices, picked up his feet and pinched his toe with the device, which was touching outside his hoof wall and also the sole of the toe area.  He pulled away from that which indicated to her there was some pain there.  I think he was just pissed at her but.... 'nother story. [':)']  (he's a cranky boy)

    My horses want to know if they can come stay at your barn.  Sounds much nicer there!
  • HEY!  Why not put an outrageous price on your palomino and say "I don't need a farrier but you can have him for $"  Of course the ol' "you're so full of s--- your eyes are brown" might work on him, too.
  • It funny you say that because when we told him to give us the money and we would pay for the work ourselves he tried to say my pony was only worth 250 and he was giving me a better deal. mmm go figure.... This pony has more sentalmental value then he is worth money wise. lol  BUt I spent all weekend  looking over all my horses feet and watching them walk and even had a friend who does farrier  work and he said they look find and for all the shoeing it my judgement because they have lived with out shoes this long..

    My pony has no soreness any where and took her trail riding with my 3 year old grand daughter and she was great.  So my opinion he just wanted to take advantage of me. lol well jokes on him cuz i won. lol
  • If that pony will safely take your granddaughter on the trails, that's a priceless pony!!
  • Hi,

    I'm a hoof care practitioner, and first & foremost, without even seeing pics of your horses or having more than vague details, couldn't do more than educated guesses. If you would seriously like critiques on your horse's feet, post some hoof pix of each of them. Directly front- & side-on from near ground level and a range of different angles of the soles & sighting down from heels is best. Would also be helpful to have confo pics of your club footed boy. Also more info on feed & lifestyle is important.

    Now, based just on your comments alone, not knowing what the guy saw or what his motives were, I'll tell what I think...

    [quote=frecklesbryant]I am trying to find out what are early signs of founder.

    It depends on who you speak to as to definitions of founder & laminitis. Some get the terms confused. I differentiate between laminitis being the initial inflammation of the laminae, causing breakdown in lamellar connection, which is generally due to metabolic/diet related causes. Early signs of this *are generally*(but not always noticable) elevated digital pulse, extra hot feet and signs the horse is in pain, often leaning back on heels to relieve toes. Depending on the severity of it, the lifestyle & diet, to some degree, and the stoicness of the horse, these things can go unnoticed. One sign that is rather obvious but frequently overlooked & not recognised are the rings that develop around the feet, from the change in growth when the lami attacks happen. Horses can have very light rings that hardly cause the tubules to deviate in their line of growth, or they can be quite ridged and prominent, depending on the severity & longevity of the attack.

    Founder is the mechanical progression of laminitis, which can come about through ongoing metabolic stress &/or mechanical stresses such as neglected or badly trimmed or shod hooves. Signs include flared feet - the plane of growth doesn't grow in a straight line from the coronet, but flares out - widened 'white lines' at the ground surface, or separation, flattish soles or ridges around the front of soles. Also the angle of the pastern to the hoof and coronary depression are possible signs.

    fighting thrush and weight on him


    Thrush is generally a *symptom* of unhealthy feet, rather than a cause in itself. Meaning it's an opportunistic infection that has little hold on healthy hooves. Weight problems commonly signify metabolic/dietary problems. Perhaps the horse was getting too much high starch/sugar feed and had become IR.

    I say WHAT. I have never had a problem with her foundering and look fine to me. Then He looked at my 6 year old Appy who is severely club footed and barefoot. and claims he need corrected shoeing or he could brake his leg.


    Regarding your pony foundering, all I can say is that people frequently 'never have a problem and don't recognise the signs of unhealthy feet until 'all of a sudden, out of the blue' the horse is dead lame & foundered badly.

    Of the 'club footed' boy, this condition may be due to conformation or an injury he sustained as a foal(which has made him carry his weight differently on that foot), and it may have been exacerbated by previous farriery care. Especially if it's due or worsened because of bad farriery, it is definitely possible to improve the situation, and generally bodywork is also integral(because injury & carrying himself differently would have put other parts out of whack), it is also possible to fix the problem completely. BUT depends on the cause, the severity, etc and can often exacerbate the problems & cause the horse to be sore if the feet are 'corrected' without proper consideration to the whole horse. It is often something they just have to live with, and I suppose it depends on what you plan to do with him, but I've never personally heard of a horse breaking his leg due to a club foot. There are a number of different approaches and opinions about the condition too tho, and the above is just mine.

    I feel like he was trying to screw me and make me feel like a bad mom to my horses and he could fix them and he was doing me a great big favor.


    Based purely on the above info, couldn't say. He may well be trying to dupe you or he may well be just a caring guy who's trying to help your horses.

    Yes they need trimmed and were cracked .... He acted like he gets his way and would call authorities on my horses so he could get my one. My paint mare is a a little over weight but always has been. we like her that way.


    How frequently do you have a farrier to your horses? If they are cracked, sounds likely you need one a bit more often. How are they kept and fed? What body score would you give your paint mare & the others? Depending on those answers, I wouldn't worry about any threats of calling the 'authorities'. If you're attending your horses well, who cares?

    all my horses are fat and health. My neighbor trims them.... .... I did cut back on grain on my fat mare and moved her paddock so she is not getting as much grass.


    I am concerned about 'fat and healthy' being put together. Because fat is NOT a healthy state for a horse(they've actually started charging people in UK for obese horses). Yes, I know it's common, but it's a common cause of founder & other 'diseases' through IR & other metabolic problems. Grain is not a generally healthy feed for a horse(yes, I know it's traditional) and it's fermentation in the hind gut causes laminitis. It's good that you moved the fattest to a paddock with less grass, but why are you giving her grain at all? No grain and a grazing muzzle might be a good idea for her, and the other not as fat ones moved to that sparser pasture.

    I think it's imperative, for the sake of their horses, for all horse owners to learn all they can of the principles & function of healthy feet and the factors, especially including diet, that influence the health of hooves. Especially if you have been confronted by someone and you don't know whether they are pulling your leg, I suggest that educating yourself would be first & foremost on the list. That way you will *know* the state of your horses feet, know what the 'ingredients' are that are leading to problems and what to do about them, know whether your neighbour trimmer is doing a good, bad or indifferent job...

    On the above note, hoofrehab.com barehoofcare.com and safergrass.org are 3 of many good sites you could start with. Also with regard to health & obesity, the Royal Veterinary College have some excellent current research on IR & laminitis that is extremely important to understand. You should be able to get the report from Dodson & Horrell feed co. I also highly recommend getting onto an equine nutritionist or such. I'm subscribed to a fantastic & invaluable(& very cheap too!) service called feedxl.com which I can't recommend highly enough.
  • nice post!  Lots of good info!  Wonder if the OP will ever come back?