Foot issue

Hunter, would you happen to have a picture of the cracks?
I'm not hoof folk, but in my 40 something years with horses I've seen some strange things. What comes to mind is abcesses who opened up on the coronary band, they typically leave these gaps, horizontal, who grow down. They look like you could put a coin in it and it would disappear, too. The typical lameness with an abcess might not easily be seen in a horse who has other problems with legs, like yours. One of my boys had several abcesses and never did a lame step, we found them, or better the traces,  when we were trimming hooves.
 Just an idea....

I'll try to get pictures.  It ran completely around the "growth ring" from one side to the other on all 4 feet.   At this point it just looks like the beginning and it seems to be on one foot so far.  This will definitely get Miles a trip to the vet.  I can't keep doing this to him.  I want to know what's going on.  The only thing last year and this year had in common was the possibility that he caught a chill.  Would that cause founder?

Hi,

Yep, sounds like acute laminitis that has caused a 'hoof blowout' - complete breakdown due to metabolic stress.  I'm interested to know if he has generally lumpy 'growth rings' or whether his feet are quite smooth between these episodes? That would indicate whether it's likely an occasional or one off incident - say he got into some grain or rich feed at some point - or whether it's likely an ongoing metabolic prob.

The low-carb diet is great, but it may be that he's particularly susceptible due to Cushings or IR or such. I'd be inclined to have him tested & perhaps only give him soaked hay, to reduce the sugars further.

Great that your farrier appreciates that the walls need to be kept short & relieved of pressure. Keeping them short & also 'rolled' should help avoid this problem leading to full on founder - separation & rotation.

I'll try to get pictures.  Metabolic stress could be getting chilled?  He's been on dry lot and hay.  He looks like skin and bones and his belly is getting bigger.  They've all been wormed.  I'll see about testing.  Our equine clinic is pretty close, I can trailer him there and save money.

OH his hair is shedding out in patches, leaving some very thin, nearly bald spots.  He's a mess. []

No, I wouldn't think getting a chill is anything to do with it. Metabolic generally indicates dietary or nutritional probs. That he's skin & bone, big pot & seems to have shedding probs indicates there may be a lot more going on. Is IR or Cushings ruled out? Thyroid probs are one other possibility, so perhaps it's related to iodine levels, or other nutrient imbalance.

He's going for tests today wundahoss.  Thanks for steering me that way.  It might have seemed like a no brainer but I've had people look at him before - vets, chiros, accupuncturists, etc.  No one suggested that.  When I talked to the vet yesterday she said that's exactly what it sounds like.  My hoof practitioner doesn't want me to spend money on xrays because the treatment will still be the same for his feet.  He thinks I should put him down.  I respect his opinion but I can't do that until I try all that I can.  By contract ASAP has to approve that.  I don't mind trying.  He deserves it.  I hope it's something a little meds each day can help with....

Eh.  Been to the vets.  Okay, Miles looks B.A.D.  VERY.  So she's talking about upping his feed and worming him within and inch of his life.  She did a fecal check and, though she found a couple of eggs, and yes he does need worming - although he was wormed about a month ago - she expected a TON of worms and only got a teensy bit.  You won't believe the program she's prescribed.  I'll do it but only because she thinks it's going to help the belly he's had for the past 4 years.  It's where his weight goes.  She's talking switching feed and feeding him 6 pounds 3X/day.  totalling 18 pounds of feed a day?!  BUT he has severe thrush, shame on me so we're clearing that up and see how it affects his feet.  Plus a hoof supplement.  His toes are sore.  She did a pinch test on him.  I'll keep you updated.  I don't feel well at the moment.

my horse has been diagnosed with chronic laminitis.  he's had quarter crack problems for the past year.  just this past week he became laminitic.  he's being kept in his stall right now on sand.  the sand has been terrific for him.  he's able to move his feet, all 4, into whatever position they each need to be comfortable.  he is barefoot and i'll keep him that way.  whenever the farrier has put shoes on him, with and without pours, the past several months he's gone lame in a few days.  thankfully, the farm where we board are 2 boys' is making him a small paddock filled with sand so he can be turned out.  i highly recommended going to sand over shavings, saw dust, etc... and having him barefoot.  within 2 days of being on the sand he was walking fine.  before the sand he hobbled around and it was so sad to watch.


we've also changed his diet... no grain.  1/2 cup of oats twice a day to mix with his medicine.  he's also got hypp so he takes diuretic pills twice a day.  we're soaking his hay for 20 minutes and then we're rinsing it off before giving it to him.


good luck.  

Thanks for the input, hj!  I really like your last name!  One of my favorite bits! []  Welcome, too!!
He is not walking as if he has laminitis at all.  She wants me to keep his feet dry but shampoo him every day for 3 days and once every 2 weeks after that.  ANYWAY, I'm out of town for the weekend.  She gave me some stuff for his feet.  It's UGH!  It's a concoction that they mix up with antibiotics in it.  It has iodine and formaldahyde and other stuff.  YIKES!  I used it this evening but I'm not going to have my son mess with that while I'm gone.  I'll hit him hot and heavy when I get back.  Including the worming. 

[quote=hunterseat]
Eh.  Been to the vets.  Okay, Miles looks B.A.D.  VERY.   ........She's talking switching feed and feeding him 6 pounds 3X/day.  totalling 18 pounds of feed a day?!  BUT he has severe thrush,

Oh, I'm sorry to hear. What tests did she do - aside from fecal - and when do you get the results? Yeah, I'm not one for heavy chemicals *generally* but a heavy worm burden, that seems immune to lighter measures needs to be hit hard IMO. Likewise with thrush. I would be using ACV or some such where possible & for maintenance, but for bad or stubborn thrush, I'd hit it hard to ensure I get it under control, then revert back to something less toxic to keep it at bay while I hopefully got the feet into a better, less susceptible state. Also ensuring the horse gets adequate levels of nutrients, especially considering copper & zinc will help lessen his susceptibility to both these 'infections'.

It depends a bit on what you're going to feed him, but horses have small stomachs, quick metabolism & it's best to avoid big meals & feed little & often. If you can manage smaller meals more frequently that would be good. He'll get more out of his ration too. But if you can't do this, slowing down his intake, using a 'slow feeder' is a good option. I use a big of heavy weldmesh in the feed bin, just sits on top of the feed & the horse has to eat thru it, so he can't gulp it down & it takes him a while. Another easy option is if you have a fair few large river rocks in the feed bin, that he's got to eat around. I believe you can buy 'slow feeders' now, but have only seen one (that looked a bit like an egg poacher(??)).

If you haven't already, might be worth consulting a nutritionist. You've probably heard this before... I highly recommend a mob called FeedXL.com who have a fantastic & very economical(saved me money, actually) service & feed analysis program. You can pick the brains of equine nutritionists on their forum & Nerida & co are always quick with responses. Next best thing to having an indepth personal consult with a nutritionist, but it's ongoing - monthly or yearly subs.

he's being kept in his stall right now on sand.  ....the farm where we board are 2 boys' is making him a small paddock filled with sand so he can be turned out.

Yep, sand or pea gravel or such are great for hooves and as you've seen, can allow foundered horses to move comfortably. It's fantastic that your farm is making you a sand paddock! Exercise is SO important, but so is doing it in comfort, so it can be a catch22 with horses who are so sore. Keeping them booted or padded 24/7 is often not an option. An arena or large round yard with reasonably deep sand or gravel may be an option for some, rather than keeping them locked up, if the sand paddock is not an option.... you're so lucky!!

I promise to give you a full account when I finally get home.  I'm on the road right now.  The vet wants to work on other issues first and then test him for Cushings or related disorders.  I'm not overjoyed but I'll be obedient.

Okay, here goes. Sorry for the delay.  I didn't really know what to think about this vet.  She's the one who saw Bullwinkle when I took him in for his eyes.  I'll just break it down best I can.

1. Cushings testing.  She didn't do it.  She will do it later if I still want it but she thinks other things are going on.  I asked her to watch out for expenses so I can't complain about this.
2. Miles is disturbing to look at.  She reacted to that.  Though he's been seen by vets, chiropractors, accupunturists, AND has been wormed on a fairly regular basis, she couldn't accept what she saw and I certainly don't blame her.  First, she knew he was wormy. [8|] Let's start with that.  She did a fecal and "knew" she'd find  him eaten up with worms.  She found a total of 3 eggs (she didn't offer to let me look).  I'm assuming that's still cause for worming but I just learned what (besides expensive) "Power Pack" means.  The jury's out on the worming because I have to dose him as follows:
   

              Week 1:1/2 tube
              Week 2: 1 full tube
              Week 3: Double dose every day for 5 days
MORE "appearance" related stuff - she said "let me check his teeth" and proceeded to shove a finger in there.  Then she proclaimed he is unable to chew hay, switch him to a complete feed.  I had NO DOUBT she knew nothing about Senior Glo, which is a very obscure feed around here as are all ADM Alliance lines.  They aren't easy to find and I feel like they are top of the line, certainly not cheap.  BUT she wanted him on a complete feed.  So, instead of switching him, I went to the ADM site (http://www.admani.com/AllianceEquine/ ) and followed what they say about it.  Since their feeding programs revolve around free choice hay and 24/7 pasture they do rely on the horse being able to eat and effectively process hay.  So to make it a complete feed, if your horse is unable, there is an ADM product to add but my feed store doesn't carry that.  It seems to be alfalfa pellets so I bought those and added it to all of them.  I was thinking, too, the hay quality has gone down for us so they can all use the extra.  I have to say they ALL look better - even Miles.  It's not going to solve his rotten topline issue, I don't think. 
OKAY - a potential founder case - ADD alfalfa?  I was skeptical but... I'll continue....

OH let me say this,  a couple of years ago I had the area expert, renown in equine dentistry, come out and do full dentals on all the horses.  ($800+ for 3  horses)  Thankfully he didn't do xrays or it would have been MUCH worse!  Miles has a couple of dead teeth but they are not infected and seem to be holding up okay.  He did have waves in his teeth and got his teeth floated (he was so good).  The dentist never mentioned him having any trouble chewing as he did with one of the others.  Of course, my trimmer isn't fond of that dentist but....'nother story.

Let me say one more thing about the feed discussion.  She asked how much I fed him.  I thought about what my feed had weighed out when I checked it so I could use the recommended amount and she broke in and asked "how many scoops?"  Well my scoop is a small lovely antique aluminum cup that I originally bought for doing batik so I was pretty sure that's not what she meant. []  When I hesitated she said "a scoop is 3 pounds"  (red flag red flag) I'll let someone else guess why this was a red flag to me if you don't understand.  Then she said "I want you to feed him 2 scoops, 3 times a day.  Okay, she's saying 18 pounds of "complete" feed a day.   Um.... no.  I never argued with her, just nodded  "...umm-hmmm..... uh-huh....."  There's no way I could do that so, as I said, I added alfalfa pellets to his normal, high quality feed in accordance with what ADM recommends. 

As I said, I do think he is doing some filling out - they all are!  I don't know if it's his inability to chew and process - I'm trying to be more observant - I'm not ruling it out.  OR if the hay quality was so poor they just weren't getting enough stuff from it.

    1.  Oops, what happened to my #3?  Let's talk FEET, the crux of my initial problem.

She first asked to see him walk.  She said he doesn't walk like he's foundered.
Then she picked out his feet.  Okay, here's my rationalization, I don't expect you to buy it.  Miles stays in the pasture 24/7.  I have little time to spend on any of them some times (fortunately I think I just found some help) BUT I don't get out there and pick his feet out on a regular basis so....... 
She announced he has severe thrush.  I was holding his head, her "assistant" (not sure what her job was as she did NOTHING) was looking at me as if I was an animal abuser.  I didn't want to argue and I didn't go look.  The vet said she's seen a lot of it with the world being so wet right now.  (red flag red flag)  Someone want to guess on why this was a small red flag to me?  But she commented on how his frogs were so severely deteriorated.  So she gave me some very strong concoction they mix themselves that has antibiotics, iodine, formaldahyde and who knows what else in it (and $20/bottle - half pint? maybe less?) 
Then she did the "squeeze test".  Never heard of it but I'm not real up on foundered horses so I'm sure everyone knows what that is. [8|]  She took a clamp thingy, picked up his foot and squeezed his toe with it.  YES he's sensitive so he probably had a founder episode. 
She also noted the outside of he hoof seems spongy below the coronet band.
She wants him on Farrier's Secret - the only PROVEN hoof supplement. [8|]
Fast forward, I was out of town last weekend and put the hoof stuff and wormer on order.  When I came back and it came in I started him.  I did put stuff on his feet before I left.
I have to say, I've since looked at his feet.  They are very dry and do not smell.  Not sure how a severe thrush case looks but I'm imagining stinky moist, funky looking foot.  Yes his frogs look bad but she never commented on the crack that is forming on that one foot that looks to be heading for all 4 feet.  She had no explanation for that.  HOWEVER I think it's going to benefit from the hoof concoction so I'll use that stuff on his soles, frogs, AND the outside making sure it goes down into those cracks.  I'll just keep using it and hopefully that stuff that's attacking his feet will be destroyed.  He's in line for a trimming next time Steve comes so I'll let you know what Steve thinks, too.
Sorry for the novel.  I think I got it all in there.
OH  here's a picture from the other day.  (I've been lectured on the chair (ILYT) - I know it's bad - it's actually up in a flower bed that they don't normally walk in - I have a TON of yardwork to do.... [>:]  ) 

Only got a minute, Hunter, will come back to you when more time... Sounds like it's *possible* this vet is not all that big on nutrition & feeding?? Don't you hate that?? Paying for 'experts' that aren't!!

Anyway, if his teeth are a prob, so he can't deal with long stemmed roughage like hay & long pasture, I've been advised by an equine nutritionist(Nerida Richards from FeedXL.com BTW) that the best thing for these horses is lots of chaff - already 'chewed' roughage. I'll look up the article I have on feeding lucerne/alfalfa too, but it's got hardly any sugar or starch, so is generally OK for IR horses.