Chronic laminitis and barefoot

Ryle, have you always talked low NSC's or did Peggy Sue have any influence on you?  She certainly influenced me, as abrasive as she can be. [] I really like what this SeniorGlo has done for my horses.  They all eat it.  Soaked, though, cuz it's in HUGE pellets.  "easier to chew"  (easier to choke on)

I talk low NSCs from attending lectures on Insulin Resistance at the AAEP symposium several years ago.
 

Okay.  I'm not sure if I knew about that but I do remember your interest in EPM and neurological stuff.  If I can hijack for just a moment I'll tell you my old Bullwinkle went blind - you might have known that.  UVeitis.  NOW I'm wondering if the halting steps and the balance issues weren't actually vision issues. I wonder how long his vision has been failing.  I know he'd ALWAYS scrape your knees on trees in the woods!  Remember I thought he had neurological problems? He was tested as a weak positive for EPM which the vet said meant he's a carrier like so many other horses but he didn't have it or he would be a strong positive.  Anyway, he's adjusting well.  I'm having to rethink things daily.  I can tell you he's thriving.  I'm sure putting a horse down because he's blind  might be an option for some - might be the only option - but for us, it's not an option.  These Stb's were adopted for life and as long as he's safe and thriving, he's part of the family.  (teaching me a lot, too)  Okay, back to hoof problems.  None for us at the moment. []

[quote=hunterseat]

Okay.  I'm not sure if I knew about that but I do remember your interest in EPM and neurological stuff.  If I can hijack for just a moment I'll tell you my old Bullwinkle went blind - you might have known that.  UVeitis.  NOW I'm wondering if the halting steps and the balance issues weren't actually vision issues. I wonder how long his vision has been failing.  I know he'd ALWAYS scrape your knees on trees in the woods!  Remember I thought he had neurological problems? He was tested as a weak positive for EPM which the vet said meant he's a carrier like so many other horses but he didn't have it or he would be a strong positive.  Anyway, he's adjusting well.  I'm having to rethink things daily.  I can tell you he's thriving.  I'm sure putting a horse down because he's blind  might be an option for some - might be the only option - but for us, it's not an option.  These Stb's were adopted for life and as long as he's safe and thriving, he's part of the family.  (teaching me a lot, too)  Okay, back to hoof problems.  None for us at the moment. []


I'm glad he's doing well and you are right, loosing your vision can definitely change you movement.  I know this from watching my grandmother gradually loose her sight.  You are right too that going blind doesn't have to be a death sentence.  My father and his friends use to do all of their running around on horses (many many years ago) and rode a completely blind horse for all of their crazy teenage antics.    So, just keep looking for ways to make Bullwinkle safe in his paddock.  Have you got a quiet pasture mate in with him?  They can serve as "seeing eye horses" for their blind buddies.
 

Yes! [] Danica has stepped up to the plate! After the other two geldings ran him through the fence a few times [] I decided to sacrifice my yard until I get a smaller area enclosed for him.  He is MUCH happier with her in there.  She went after him the other day and I went after HER! [>:] I haven't seen that before or since.  He's got big HUGE bite marks on his shoulders from the geldings. [:@]

OH- VERY encouraging about your dad's teenage antics on a blind horse.  A "fly on the wall" moment, don't you think?  Or if youtube had been around...

Hi,

I'm not that familiar with Ric Redden's work - have read but can't remember what his particular 'style' or arguments are. I also have only skimmed the replies, so sorry if I repeat, state the obvious, whatever....

I'm a hcp who specialises in rehabilitation of hoof problems & have had lots of experience with successfully treating lami & founder, among other probs. I firmly believe that shoeless treatment is the best option. I think the best you can do is to learn as much as you can of the principles behind different methods, weigh up the pros & cons & then make your own *informed* decision on the methods you think best.

IMO diet is about the most important factor. It is generally metabolic stress due to diet that is the cause of laminitis. First & foremost ensure your horse is on a healthy, low - sugar/starch diet and supplemented appropriately to give her well balanced nutrition. She may also benefit from extra magnesium or a product such as 'Founderguard', altho this depends on the hows & whys of her condition. You may want to consider a grazing muzzle, putting hay in a 'slow feeder' & other measures to restrict her intake. You'll find some good info on the diet aspects of lami at safergrass.org

Study up on the anatomy & function of *truly healthy* hooves. Unfortunately there are still many bad examples of supposedly healthy hooves abounding in books, online, etc, so learn to know what you're looking at.

Trimming hooves in such a way as to *gradually* get them back into the shape they should be is a must. Eg. the bottom of P3(coffin/pedal bone) should be near ground parallel, the hoof walls should be straight & parallel with the outer surface of P3. Therefore, reducing high heels and relieving stretched, flared walls to allow them to grow straight & well attached is a must.

However, depending on the state of the hooves, I believe doing this gradually is vital. Eg. I would never *generally* rasp into the sole at any point. Doing it too suddenly, thinning areas or forcing into use structures that are ill prepared to cope with pressure(such as weak digital cushions) will cause the horse to 'tippy toe' and therefore keep that pressure on the tip of P3 & perpetuate the problem, regardless of the 'correctness' of angles & measurements. Often on a first trim, I may back up & relieve a stretched toe, but may take little if any off heels, almost regardless how long they are.

The horse will also need protection for her feet, at least on hard/rough ground for the time being, to allow her to move comfortably & correctly. The more exercise the better generally, but if she's not comfortable, she won't be doing much & if she feels the need to land toe first, this won't be helping. She will likely need, or at least benefit from extra support for her soles/frogs in the form of pads or such.

hoofrehab.com is a great source of well researched & practiced info relevant to laminitis, among other hoof probs.

Hi,
thanks for the reply. I went to the site last night and read and read and read........and forgot all about replying[]
 Very interesting, to say the least, and very much the way I think.
I've been more and more convinced now that a barefoot trim is the right thing for my Naseeba.
As of now, her feet seem to be somewhat "dead", if you know what I'm trying to say. All rigid, nothing "alive". I don't know how else to describe it, but that's the feeling I get when I watch her moving, too. Seems like she's trying to "work around the shoes" when walking.
So, in my opinion, the'll have to come off.
 The diet changes are all done, she gets hay, soaked for at least an hour, now the 300 grams of oats are down to barely a handfull, as a topping for soaked hay pellets with a bit of oil, linseed and soybeanmeal. She is a 4.5 on a 10 point body conditioning score, so ideal weight.
In fact, she's been eating like this for about two years at least. So I'm convinced that the shoeing is the problem. As I stated in a previous post, she's been doing extremely well about a year ago, but has broken and lost a shoe and the new ones my farrier made were never really right and it went all downhill since then.
 Btw, the Redden method can be seen on his site, nanric.com . He also has videos which show well how his method is being applied. Also one of a barefoot trim, the four-point-trim. If I just could get my farrier to watch these videos...........
 
You say on a first trim you just back up and relieve a stretched toe and pretty much leave the heels alone. The heels are the main problem, too high, and also growing forward, becoming underrun. The toe has been backed up every time she's been done. So obviously they have to be adressed in one way or another.
Since I don't believe I can find somebody who does barefoot the "soft" way as prescribed by you here in Italy, I'll be forced to try myself. Theory is not the problem, I know exactly what I'm looking at and talking about, it's the practice. My poor back.......
Then to find the Epics here in the right size will also be a problem. And since I don't know the size until she's been trimmed, it's even worse.
 But I will try.
I want to see this girl trot and lope soon. She is trying so hard, has been up on her feet, even tho they hurt, all day, not down for a nap in the afternoon no more. The feet are not hot, and if she's on a straight line, she walks half way decent, once she gets moving.
 I would like to pick your mind if I may.......[]

Hi,

Yeah, '4 point' came to mind with RR. While I can understand & appreciate the principles behind the '4 point' model, I think it's extremely subjective & I don't personally believe it's a good general 'rule' to trim to. This is just my very basic opinion of it.

Was not in the least trying to say don't touch the heels - it is common for high heels to be at least a large part of the problem & therefore need addressing. Just that taking heels down too much, too fast can also be problematic & I will frequently leave them, or lower them only slightly, in the first trim or few, in order to gauge the strength of the heels & allow the internal structures to adapt. The primary goal, IMO is doing what it takes to get the horse making heel first impacts. This can't be done solely(pardon the pun!) by changing the angles & length with trimming, because the horse also needs to be comfortable in order to use her feet correctly.

You might find that asking people such as Pete Ramey, other similar sites & forums & associations, you can find someone in your area who can do - or help you do - the job. I'm also happy to give you any feedback & advice, if you would like to send hoof pics, either privately or on the forum.

Re boots, yeah, if the horse is comfortable in her paddock at least, I'd be inclined to give her a few *good* trims first, before measuring for boots, to ensure they fit better/longer before you need to change them. It's worth considering contacting Easycare directly & also looking at their 'bargain bin' because I actually got boots for my guys directly from the states, at vastly cheaper prices, including postage, than I could get them from here!

Oooooohhh, Thank You sooo much for the tip with the easycare site
I just looked and that sounds like a great deal
I asked a friend who has used easyboots some time ago for the transfer phase, she said I can borrow hers, if they fit, so I won't (hopefully) be bootless. I will gladly send you pics, tell me what you'd prefer, here or privately.
 The barefoot people around here are all Strasser oriented, means they work pretty "radical", which is why I was in doubt in the first place about going barefoot. Hunterseat gave me the addy's of two practicioners, but it's so hard to get appointments with them and I feel in the beginning phase it's rather critical to be able to do her as need be.
 I've noticed something strange today. She is overdue for a trim, and, as I said, she grew heel, but also toe, the shoes have grown forward quite a bit. Now she rockers back a bit and seems to be standing rather comfortably like that. And once she's moving straight, she is ALMOST going clear. So that tells me that she wants to get rid of that heel, obviously.
She even got a bit excited about our free roaming pigs today and the tail went up and she trotted a couple of steps. I haven't seen her doing that for a loooong time. []