Getting a better stop...well just A stop actually...

This is the first I have read about you and your 3yo, so I do not all the story/history.  But here are my thoughts from this post.
1) "because verbal and body cues mean nothing"   Start on the ground or at a walk until they DO mean something, and be sure you are being consistent.  Saying "whoa" today and "walk" tomorrow for a halt will only confuse your horse.  then go to the next level; trot to walk, if he does that well, try trot to halt.  Don't try to do it all in one day.  This week work from the ground next week while riding, trot to walk, and the third week trot to halt.
2)"I've tried walking him back with my spurs"  Does you horse understand that this means back up, and not go forward?  spur backs don't develop overnight, and again, consistency is the key.  Ask him to back without "walking him back with your spurs"  if all you get is one step, thats good enough, tomorrow ask for two.  next week ask for 3, and so on, do not expect him to back 8-10 steps the first day.
3)"I have been told that moving him into a shank bit with a mild port might help correct this?"  IMO this is a shortcut, and will most likely make your horse fear the bit. From your post, it sounds like he just does not understand what you are asking of him. 
                                                                Good Luck!!

Great advice, Showqueen.  It's all about little steps and consistent cues.

Hi

I too know nothing about you & your horse except for what you've said here. First & foremost, while it sounds like the horse hasn't been taught the basics, it is also likely that physical problems are contributing. It's obvious that the bit is either hurting him of itself(don't know how you 'checked for pain') &/or it's your use of it combined with his lack of training that's hurting him & he's afraid & bracing against it. The saddle may also be causing him grief, whether it's too tight, too far forward, too tight a girth, badly balanced.... he may find it physically painful to stop & backup. May also be to do with your own balance(which may be related to the saddle) and you're causing it to be difficult for him. Also consider his feet. If for eg. he has high &/or sensitive heels, this may be a cause of his discomfort & also lack of balance.

I agree with what showqueen has said. It sounds as though he is not very well trained at all & you firstly need to go back to(or just go to) the basics & **teach** him what you want of him, rather than just trying to force it with mechanics. You also need to appreciate that he is a baby and expect 'kindergarten' standards, working up *gradually* from there, rather than expecting 'high school' responses.

I would strongly consider finding some good experienced help for your training of him, as it's all too easy to mess up a great horse when you don't know what you're doing.

I too advise you start on the ground & teach him what you want of him there first. Teach him how to yield to pressure in all manner of ways. I like to teach them to respond to voice cues too. I would also start teaching him everything just with a halter. The bit(or your force on it) have become associated with pain, and you want to avoid that. Especially that he's already developed negative reactions to the bit, I would get him going reliably & well without one before considering introducing one again. When you do, use something like a double jointed snaffle & go about introducing it very gradually & gently.

Teach him everything in 'baby steps' with *instant* reinforcement(rewards & release of pressure) for his *tries* - that is, if you ask for a turn for eg & he shifts his weight over without moving his feet, accept & reinforce that, rather than keeping at it until he actually steps over. That will come with repetition on the easier stuff. Horses learn by doing what works, so make sure the 'right' things are easy for him. Likewise, when you get up to the stage of riding, don't bother with trotting & cantering until you've got his walk/backup/turns under control(without force). And when you ask him to stop(with your body *then* reins), remember to accept & reinforce the tries - DON'T keep at him & pull harder if he only slows down, but release the pressure so he can learn what works. Lots of repetition on the basics before asking him for *a little* more/better.

Also on the note of ambling to a stop from a lope, even when training-wise the horse may be up to that, remember that it's physically hard on them to do this with a rider & he'll need to learn to balance himself too.

A better stop is always in our minds as riders but sometimes the horse doesn't understand the cues, ignores them or a little of both.  I can only tell you what has worked for me over the years and what I might try if he were here for training. 
 
To make sure that he fully understood that when I say "WHOA" that means stop or your falling off the end of the world start on the ground.  Get a good training stick and take the string off if it has one.  Set yourself up along a wall of the arena so that he is against the wall and you on the outside.  This will help him to stay straight and only have one direction to move away from you and thats back.  So for all intensive purposes you are working on stop and get back.  Walk him forward as you would normally do with the stick in your left hand held down, now as you say whoa give a good pull/release on the halter (say it loudly at the start) and if he keeps moving bring  the stick forward and tap both knees with as little or as much force needed to make him take a step back.  Most horses that know to stop and don't will turn and look at you like you've lost you mind at this point but its important for them to understand that today is a new day and it will no longer be accepted.  keep doing this a few times and move on to something else so that your not drilling him because he will get frustrated and shut down.  Over a few days up it to trot and lope if he will in hand, always when you say whoa bringing the stick forward so that anymore forward movement from him contacts on the stick.  Use walls to help if you need to really impress upon him that he must stop. 
 
When you are undersaddle do the same thing set him up for the first few days to WANT to stop.  The horse that looks for the stop will always be listening.  When you get on don't start asking for stops right away, give him a good hard workout and make him work for the stop which is a release.  Lope him circles or trot serpentines but when he is ready you will feel him start rating back to you, ears will change, headset will change and you will feel him let out a breath to the point of him droping gait but make him move just a bit more.  Now don't confuse this and think I mean ride himinto the ground because I'm not saying that.  Most horses after about 30 to 45 minutes of a good workout will begin looking for a break.  when you set him up for the stop line him up along a wall and keep him moving straight.  Just before he hits the wall push yourself down into the saddle this will bring your toes out slightly and gently pick up on his mouth but if he doesn't stop off of these cues just keep him straight because he has to stop or run into the wall.  As he starts picking up on the meaning of the cues you can wean yourself away from the wall and only then can you get a bit heavier with your hands if he refuses a stop.
 
The backing will come together with the stop.  Bridle him up and jiggle the reins as though you were on him cueing for a back up.  If he stands there asleep, tap him with the trianing stick to let him know he needs to be doing something.  When on him you can enlist the help of someone to stand infront of him and as you bump him with your spurs have them move him back a step.  This makes sure that he understands what you are asking and then you can refine it.  When I train for the back up there are several things to keep in mind.  ONe is I never pull back with both reins at the same time its always either a seesaw motion or a jiggle of both reins.  Pulling with both on a snaffle will cause the bit to "break" int he horses mouth and most will either elivate their head or gap until they really learn to give to pressure of the bit.  If he won't do it in a snaffle he won't do it in a correction.  Two is body position, don't lean back to do this as it puts extra weight on the hind instead try keeping your hips still and just slightly not even noticable to an onlooker but tilt your upper body forward just a bit and cue for the back.  When he gets one step drop your hands and just sit still.  Give him a good pat and move on to something else, don't make the mistake of getting greedy and asking for a 5ft back up today.  The first time I ask for the backup as long as I get one step I can always get two next time and three, then four.
 
Hope this gives you some ideas and keep us posted.

Awesome instruction, trainer! (I really miss you when you're gone.  Maybe you have a life.  [] )

Thanks guys

Ok so I realize I need to clarify a few things for ya'll, and it's my bad for not telling this part first...idk why I didn't.

This horse is not mine. I ride him 4-5 days a week and show on weekends. I have only been riding this horse for not even 2 months. I DID NOT TRAIN HIM. I am only about to be 20. I don't consider myself a trainer, nor do I go around claiming to be one. I don't want everyone to think this is a problem I created because of poor or sloppy training. What I can tell you is what I know personally of his training...

Mike (the man who owns him) bought this horse with 60 days of basic starting and training on him (we will call trainer 1). Then, sent him to a local trainer around here for another 60 days (we will call trainer 2). Now I know trainer 2, and don't particularly agree with the way she does some things. Mainly, how she is always in the horse's mouth and very hard. She trains western pleasure horses who have to have their chins glued to their chests. I do know that when Cash was with trainer 2 she was VERY VERY hard on his mouth. To the extent of making it raw. She will really yank on a horse's face. I didn't really think about it before, but could this have caused his problem now? I have no idea what kind of horse he was straight out of trainer 1 before trainer 2. He may have had a good stop. But I know since I got on him day 1, almost 2 months ago, he has been really hard in the mouth when it comes to stopping and backing.

Now...he will give to pressure and break over at the poll when you ask. And he will carry it there very well for a young horse. I don't have to remind him much, but when I do it's VERY subtle, and he responds immediately, and I release immediately.

Also (and I didn't think about this either) when you are on the ground longing (sp?) him it doesn't matter whether he is at a walk, trot, or lope, when you say whoa and give a little tug on the rope (cuz that's how mike has him trained) he will immediately stop and face you. All of his horses are trained that way, so I am guessing that's how he wants them.

Hopefully this clears things up a bit and maybe helps ya'll understand the situation a little better. Like I said, I don't want ya'll to think I did this to him. I just "found" him so to speak the way he is and I want to help him and make him better so that we both can have an easier more comfortable ride. The things I have told ya'll that I have tried (walking back with the spurs, etc.) aren't things I just thought up and decided to try. These are things I have been told by other horse people around me to do. I just want to go about this the right way and help him out. If we need to go back to ground zero and start over, then great, if it's the best way to help him. I'm all for that. I just kinda felt a little like some people thought maybe it was my fault, but I guess that's my bad for not clarifying this from the beginning.

So that's all I know about his training. He was this way the day I got on him. Can't say what happened at trainer 1, but I know they were rough on his mouth at trainer 2. Think this may play a part in it? Hope this helps!!

And you're doing such an amazing job with him in the show ring!  It's almost supernatural!  You should wear a Wonder Woman costume!

Hi again,

I DID NOT TRAIN HIM. I am only about to be 20. I don't consider myself a trainer, nor do I go around claiming to be one. I don't want everyone to think this is a problem I created because of poor or sloppy training.

Firstly, I just re-read my post & I apologise that I did come across more judgmental of you than intended. I was not assuming you necessarily started this horse tho. With your further info, it sounds like you definitely didn't *create* this problem. But you need to understand that you are indeed training him now, so contributing to either the 'problem' or the 'cure'. Good, bad or otherwise, intentional or otherwise, everything you're doing is training him. So it pays to be conscious and intentional about it, to ensure you teach him what you want him to learn, rather than inadvertent 'wrong' lessons.

when Cash was with trainer 2 she was VERY VERY hard on his mouth. To the extent of making it raw. She will really yank on a horse's face. I didn't really think about it before, but could this have caused his problem now?

& from your first post...

you really have to pull to get him to move his legs.

Most certainly! Horses learn by association, and if he's been abused with the bit, particularly with little prior good experience of it, he will associate rein pressure with that pain/fear/need to be defensive. Your pulling on his mouth is further reinforcing this 'lesson'. When horses are fearful & reactive they're not really *able* to think clearly - a popular term for it is 'right brained' as this seems to be the more emotional, reactive side of the brain, while the left is the more rational, thinking side. You want to *avoid* him going 'right brained' at all if possible & keep him 'left brained' so that he can start to think & learn. That is a major reason why I think he'd be better off without a bit until he's solid.

So, first & foremost I'd rule out & treat any issues that may be causing him pain, as mentioned above, then yes, I'd start at the start again. If he has really had a good foundation of training, you may find you need to do very little on the ground - it'll be more like running through everything to see what he knows & how good he is. But if you find 'holes' in that foundation, then it's a good idea to deal with them before going on further.

I agree mainly with Trainer above, except that I would firstly accept the smallest tries & build gradually, as explained above, and I wouldn't start with strong 'cues' - eg. on the ground I'd say 'whoa' and stop *myself* first, before blocking him with the stick, before gently tapping him with it, before getting gradually stronger(but not to the point of painful, just discomfort). That way he will learn what follows if he doesn't do as you ask, but he has a chance to avoid the punishment. He also has a chance to learn to respond to your bodylanguage first & foremost.

I would do likewise on his back, but starting slowly, as getting them loping, especially when they're already fearful can just fire them up more, especially if they're so worried about stuff to begin with. I'd start in a controlled enough setting(small arena, large pen for eg) that you don't have to worry about him getting away and as with on the ground, start with what you want him to learn to respond to - voice & seat - and only after that start a *light* rein aid, gradually increasing it just to *discomfort* if/when necessary. There should be no reason to get heavier, just set it up & wait until he yields(again, the smallest 'try' is enough to begin with). As he learns what is going to follow if he doesn't respond to your bodylanguage, he will learn how to avoid it & respond to you quicker. As he gets good at it, you can also get faster at going from bodylanguage to heavier rein aids, teaching him to be snappier.