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Chronic laminitis and barefoot

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Chronic laminitis and barefoot
  • Hi all,
    I'm in the process of deciding what to do with my little mare with chronic laminitis now. I have limited resources, which means there is really no capable farrier around who could shoe her right. My current farrier has been trying and trying, I showed him Ric Redden's books, the how-to videos who are on the website, but somehow he , the farrier, hasn't understood the concept behind it yet. She's been doing fine last year, to the point that she actually galopped and trotted absolutely clear, with the effect that she broke and lost a shoe. The new shoes he made then, were never really right. And he's afraid to take off heel.
    I do have a vet who has studied Redden's principles and he said that barefoot might be also an option. I do believe it, BUT.......yeah, the big BUT. I don't know if I can stand seeing her down all the time and walking even worse than now, even if it's only for some time, until she finally gets better.
    Is there anybody who had it done, or has a friend who has a friend who knows somebody who had it done?
     I've been looking at various websites and it all sounds very promising. Tons of horrible pictures of even more horrible feet, who are all sound now. I'm even convinced that I could do the trimming myself, after the first, initial trim.
    Don't know, any morale support out there somewhere? Pro's and Con?s?
     
  • Forgot to mention, my other horses are barefoot, been barefoot all their lives
  • I have shod many crippled horses that have foundered.  I do not believe in Ric, sorry but have see to many of his clinics as he is one day on one topic with an idea and the next time you see him has a different method becuase the last one was a flop, sorry I am not going to support him, and his helicopter too.
    the first start to recovery is that you have to get this foot back to the orginal shape, this means that you have to take any dish out and set the foot to the normal hoof angle, the more heel that you have the more weight is being applied to the coffin bone (which sounds like you may have rotation in your case)
    2nd I like to use a supporting shoe, follow with a pad and fill (between the foot and pad) with Sil-pak made by vet tech.  I have found this to be immediate relief to the horse, when the horse has his feet in shape (and look normal (or close to it)) then I would start taking away, remove pad, just shoe, if the horse does fine with that, then, go and remove shoe.  If at anytime the horse starts going lame again then you will have to go back to the previous step and stick with it.  I am not trying to discourage you from you trim, as I have several horses that have foundered really bad and they are fine as a trim or shoe, but there are others that need the whole thing just to be "useable" 
    But if you want to try to go Rics way with the 4 point go for it, but the only thing that I have to say is this, those are wild horses, not domesticated and if they go lame they get eat'n or die, besides they really dont founder in the wild.
    As for the trim yourself bit, I dont know what to tell you...but I dont think it would be a good idea, as you cannot learn to be a farrier in a hr video...it takes many many many hours of study and principle under supervision to become one...and you would need a trained eye to make sure that you are not taking off too much or too little, lateral balance, angle, wall,etc (plus with a founder horse they tend to get a lot of sole that will not shed at the apex of the coffin bone which will result in a long toe low heel syndrome. It will have to be peared out)
    I am not trying to be a stick in the mud for you but I do worry that you may do more damage then good with these ideas.  
    I always get the reply "it looks so easy when you do it (the hoof work) "  and I always reply with "It is my job to make it look easy"
    Good luck 
    PS if you want send some photo I will be more than happy to "look" at your horses feet
  • Deserthorsewoman, I can't remember where you are.  In the middle states, my trimmer, Steve Johnson, does a lot of successful work on founder cases.  He's all natural and won't use shoes.  I personally think shoes are NOT the devil incarnate but some do.  Steve doesn't feel that way either, but he is following a method he prefers.  I've been extremely happy with him.  Here's his site and you can see me on Bully on his home page!!!  [':)'] How fortunate for you!! [':D'][':D']
    http://www.dragonflyfarmshoofcare.com/Dragonfly.html

    You can email him questions, send him pics, whatever.  If you decide to email and he doesn't answer, he's on the road alot.  I'll call him and let him know.  He should be out here in another couple of weeks.
  • Along with the great advice already given, diet is also crucial to helping the laminitic hoof.
     
    You didn't say if this horse has metabolic issues, but I would treat her that way.
     
    Without question, I would get her off anything saturated with molasses.
     
    One step further would be to get her completely off any oat and corn based feed.
     
    Beet pulp or equine rice bran, and a high quality ration balancer would be more beneficial.
     
    If possible, limiting her grass when spring gets here will also help.
     
    None of my four horses have been on grain since the 22 yr old became insulin resistant nearly 3 years ago.
     
    If there is one supplement that I would shout about from the roof tops in terms of excellent providing hoof and coat quality, it would be Omega-3 Horseshine from www.omegafields.com
     
    It can be bought at Tractor Supply.  It is pricey but a little goes a long way.
     
    My horses always had healthy hooves, but even my vet was highly impressed with the terrific hoof quality on my I-R horse when he gave them all physicals last Fall.
     
    My best wishes are also coming your way to keep your horse healthy and sound':)'
  • Walkinthewalk is right that you need to consider that there is a metabolic issue such as insulin resistance behind the chronic laminitis.  Even without testing, it would be a good idea to go ahead and change her diet to minimize her intake of non-structural carbohydrates as much as possible.   Grass hay that has been soaked for at least 30 minutes should be the core of her diet as the soaking will lower the NSC's in the hay.  Then to balance it out a ration balancer like Purina's Enrich 32 should be fed at a rate of 1-3 lbs per day to ensure that there are appropriate amounts of all nutrients in her diet.   If you can't find purina feed products then you can choose another "ration balancer".  Your feed dealer might not know them by that term, but you will be looking for a feed that is designed to be fed at a rate of around 1-3 lbs per day and has a protein content of around 30%.     Turnout should be limited to a dry lot or for no more than 4 hours a day on pasture due to the variable NSC content of pasture grass based upon environmental conditions.  
     
    Talk to your vet about the possibility of Insulin Resistance and do a bit of research on www.thehorse.com  If you search for insulin resistance on there, you will find lots of good information. 
     
    If there is a metabolic issue, then controlling it will help minimize the risk of further attacks of laminitis.
  • Wow, Thank You all!!! I had already given up hope...
     Okay. As for diet, she eats hay, soaked for an hour ( to get rid of eventually present fructanes), 300 grams of straight rolled oats, divided into 3 meals, and in the evening, to make it a bit more, about 200 grams dry weight of beet pulp WITHOUT molasses added, of course, 50 grams of soybean meal and 50 grams of linseed. She has been nibbling on grass all winter long, we were lucky enough to have some, so the spring grass will not hurt her, besides, out-on-grass-time is limited anyway (the usual procedure, first half an hour, then 45 minutes and so on). Then, there is not much grass anyway, it becomes dry lot after about a week with three horses on, it's only a paddock, about an acre in size. And she is in ideal condition, not overweight, not underweight, about a 4,5.
     I've been reading even more about the barefoot trim, but it won't be possible, not for now, anyway, since it's required to have the horse out 24/7 in a herd. The herd I have, but out 24/7 I won't do without a shelter for them. And unfortunately there is none. So that would be only possible during the summer months.
     So we're in need of shoeing her correctly. Like I said, the farrier I have now is very willing to do what I say, and when he does so, she walks just fine. But he is absolutely scared to take off heel. Without taking off heel, she, as mentioned, will bear weight on the hurting coffin bone.
    The pair of shoes he made when she was galopping and trotting just fine, were very close to the ones Redden makes. But the last ones, the ones she wears now, were just not right and never became right either. I didn't like them from the get go, and I told him so. Needless to say we argued.
    She had rotated in the left, now, I'm afraid, also in the right, since now she's more sensitive on the right than the left, and has been growing also a bit more heel there.
    She is walking in and out of her stall during the day, slow, but she does so without being forced. IF forced, she even trots(only slight encouragment necessary). She is not much down, depending on how long she was out, she takes a nap in the afternoon, but gets up right before dinner time to do another round in the yard. Feet are sometimes warm, then next day not. It seems the first few steps are the hardest for her, after that she walks, slow, but steady, without that strange "support" from the hind legs. Turning is painful, especially to the left, she rolls back rather then turns normally.
     Depending on how he trims her before shoeing, she walks absolutely clear right after, just to become worse again after about a week or so. But she does her off and on days. Strange.
     I will try to get some usuable pictures tomorrow and post them. We are overdue for a visit from Pasquale right now, mainly because I had not decided as of yet which way to go.
    Another thing puzzles me, tho. The barefoot people say she needs to move, Redden (sorry for mentioning him all the time[';)']) says stall rest is necessary. For her mind it is for sure better to be out in the paddock with her buddies.
     
     Oh, forgot to say, to Hunter, I am in Italy, and I am a firm believer that shoeing is not an evil and in some cases necessary, be it for protection, or corrective shoeing, but I also think that, if at all possible, barefoot is the natural thing to do.
  • I've been reading even more about the barefoot trim, but it won't be possible, not for now, anyway, since it's required to have the horse out 24/7 in a herd.

     
    Do you have a link to the article that says that?!?!?
     
    My four horses have been trimmed according to the Pete Ramey (you can Google "Pete Ramey") method for the last three years and their in/out routine is the same as it's been all their lives ---  come in at night, go out in the morning, 365 days/yr.
     
    This is the first I've ever heard that a horse must be out 24/7 for barefoot trimming?!
  • [quote=walkinthewalk]

    I've been reading even more about the barefoot trim, but it won't be possible, not for now, anyway, since it's required to have the horse out 24/7 in a herd.


    Do you have a link to the article that says that?!?!?

    My four horses have been trimmed according to the Pete Ramey (you can Google "Pete Ramey") method for the last three years and their in/out routine is the same as it's been all their lives ---  come in at night, go out in the morning, 365 days/yr.

    This is the first I've ever heard that a horse must be out 24/7 for barefoot trimming?!

    Sounds strange to me, too.
  • The link:
    www.naturalhorsetrim.com
    scroll down to Section 4.
    It's the Strasser method . I remember Dr. Strasser from Germany, she was in big trouble a couple of times with the Humane Society. Apparently she trimmed horses who then wouldn't get up for 6 months after that. But that was 15, 20 years ago, when all the barefoot "craze" was very new. She is still known for being a bit radical, but seems to have success. I never personnally saw a horse trimmed by her, but I did see a couple of horses done "her" way. A Mini Shetland, who walked just fine after about a week after the trim, and a Haflinger mare who was down for a couple of months, in the paddock, in the herd, but then was sent home, sound. Or at least that's what I was told. But both horses were acute, not chronic like mine.
     We've been dealing with laminitis for 3 years now, with up's and down's, lately more down's. Mainly because there is really nobody who is capable of doing it right. It all starts out just fine, but then it goes downhill. I had one farrier who did her, she walked, trotted and loped right away, it cost me a fortune, but after the first 5 or 6 shoeings he brought a friend over to learn. Sorry, if I pay the equivalent of roughly 200 $ per trim, only for the front feet, I want the expert, not the trainee. And sure enough, she got worse. So I tried a barefoot trimmer, who spoke well, but never showed up to do her. Then Naseeba was done by somebody who shoes trotters, a self made man. We stalled. I told him I had to find somebody who would get her going again, not keep her in the same bad condition. He got mad, of course. So I found Pasquale, my current farrier. He at least listened to my ideas, looked at the Redden book, made a shoe like Redden uses, and applied it. First with great success, but then...well, you all know the rest of the story.
     After all that I'm kinda leaning towards the barefoot trim, at least that way she doesn't have to endure the nailing, which she tolerates with 4or 5 pounds of carrots, if I shove them in her mouth every time the hammer hits the hoof. Heaven forbid I'm a bit too late, she bites my fingers, and hard, too. I don't blame her.
     I just don't know if I could stand seeing her down all the time, maybe even for months.
     I wish I could just blink and be in the US, where there are barefot trimmers readily available, or farriers who understand what's needed. If Naseeba is fixed, I'd like to blink again and come back to "la bella Italia" again, of course[';)'].
  • Ulrike, I totally forgot you're in Italy.  You were on the Arabian thread and told us that.  And is JimmyHaflinger anywhere near  you?  He's over there somewhere.
    My trimmer comes tomorrow.  He's the dragonfly farm link I posted a few posts back.  I'm really anxious to tell him about you!  Maybe he knows someone over there! [':)']
  • Are these anywhere close?

    Dr. Gianluca (Luca) Gandini, CP, Field Instructor, NTW Clinician
    Roma
    [email=lgandini@fastwebnet.it]lgandini@fastwebnet.it[/email]This e-mail address is being protected from spambots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it
    Fluent in Italian and English
     
     
    Dario Arcamone, CP, Field Instructor
    Firenze (Florence)
    339-7256856
    [email=darioarcamone@gmail.com]darioarcamone@gmail.com[/email]This e-mail address is being protected from spambots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it
    Fluent in Italian and English
     

  • Wow, Thanks, Hunter..
    Gandini rings a bell, I think he's the one who made the Strasser/Jackson method known, infact, the guy who did the Haflinger and the pony, learned at one of his clinics. This guy would be right at the place where my horses are, BUT...long before he started doing barefoot trim, he shoed "normal", did my horses, I wasn't too happy and he got mad with me. Then I showed him the Jaime Jackson book, and now he's a BF trimmer and forgot all about what I showed him 3 years ago.....go figure. Besides, even if he did the two horses, with help from Luca, I must say, I think he still doesn't have enough experience just yet to do my Naseeba.
    Dario wouldn't be too far away, Firenze is only about an hour drive from us.
    I'll contact both of them.
    Where did you find them anyway?[':D']
  • http://www.aanhcp.net/

    This link was on Steve's site - the link I posted above.  On the "find a practitioner - International" on the left side of the home page.  They're both field clinicians so they are cleared to teach the trim.  A guy trimmed my guys 3 times and screwed them up so bad.   I got Steve back and we sent in pictures of how bad my horses' feet were.  That guy will never teach!  Not with the support of the AANHP.  Sometimes it takes a long time to get their feet turned around but it differs.  Mine are out 24/7 and it was different for each one of the 3.  One was close to a year but the others were faster!
  • [quote=deserthorsewoman]


    Okay. As for diet, she eats hay, soaked for an hour ( to get rid of eventually present fructanes), 300 grams of straight rolled oats, divided into 3 meals, and in the evening, to make it a bit more, about 200 grams dry weight of beet pulp WITHOUT molasses added, of course, 50 grams of soybean meal and 50 grams of linseed. She has been nibbling on grass all winter long, we were lucky enough to have some, so the spring grass will not hurt her, besides, out-on-grass-time is limited anyway (the usual procedure, first half an hour, then 45 minutes and so on). Then, there is not much grass anyway, it becomes dry lot after about a week with three horses on, it's only a paddock, about an acre in size. And she is in ideal condition, not overweight, not underweight, about a 4,5.

    Even very short grass can be high in NSCs --in fact it can be higher.  So, it would be good to keep her off of it completely.    You also need to remove the oats.  She should not be on any grains at all as they are high in NSCs.