Skinny Horse:(

I respect your opinion Mist and you have lots more experience in lots of ways HOWEVER you can't say round bales have no nutritional value!  That's a blanket statement that's simply not true.  (CAN be true - farmers call it cow hay if it's not good for horses.  And I've been stuck with some junk hay.)  
 
Also, I'm trying to do fecal testing for parasites on mine now.
 
AND, though we always fed corn for heat in the winter growing up, it was proven to me that oats are actually more heat producing.  I don't feed either now BUT I live in the midsouth, not Wisconsin. 

I work with a lady who's mom was an Arabian breeder. Shes the one who helped me put together the feeding program hes on now. She has a 32 year old Arab that lives off beet pulp, alfalfa cubes and feed because of bad teeth. When she got him he was a rack of bones and now you he is a great looking horse. Can't even tell hes 32. The round bales I'm feeding came from a cattle farmer that is retired. He bales the hay for us. It is first years crop. Not the best hay but its not bad either. That's why I added the alfalfa cubes. My little mare has been eating his hay for for 2 years and is doing fine.  They are stored inside.  We watch for any signs of mold and if there is even a small trace of mold the bale gets hauled away.  I have been feeding round bales for 8 years and have never had a problem.  He is on a regular worming program. I rotate Equimax and Horse health Ivermectin. My cousin told me I should look into POWER WORMING him. Never heard of that before. But she said that when a horses stomach is full of worms they move into the muscle tissue. As you worm a hose you get the ones in the stomach out and the worms in the muscles then move into the stomach. That's why you worm them everyday for 5 days. Sounds very risky to me. But if thats the case and he has worms in his muscles, is that the reason he has no muscle tone?
His ribs are visible...Its hard to get a picture showing them because of his color. I have some pics of him that he looks good in even though hes not. Maybe I will try taking a video of him moving around and get a better view of his body.
Also, are alfalfa pellets the same as alfalfa cubes? Or is that something I can add to his diet without over doing it?
My husband thinks he looks alot better now then when we got him and thinks that I cant see it because I see him everyday and I look to hard for improvements, so I hope hes right
Ooops! I almost forgot to add that alot of horse people get their hay from the same farmer. Do you think I should switch hay anyways, just in case thats part of his problem.

  If you've been feeding this farmer's hay for years and have been happy with the quality and it works for your horses, there is no need to change it.   I do see a potential flag when you say it works for your "little mare".  She probably has very different needs than the gelding at this point.  Some RBs are excellent horse quality hay while others are junk.  Just like all the other size bales of hay.  The difference between alfalfa cubes and pellets is really only the length of the product.  Nutritionally they are the same.  The only time it would be important to feed cubes over pellets if all your long stem fiber was coming from this source. A horse needs fibers 3" or longer to help move things along the digestive tract and for microbial hindgut fermentation (heat producing).  If you have a source for baled alfalfa that is always prefered because the quality will be higher (cubes and pellets are more often made from mature, rained on or stemmy hay) and the cost is significantly less (cubes run over $400/ton).
 
  The power pack deworming program is to target encysted strongyles.  You give a double dose of fenbendazole (Panacur or Safeguard) for 5 consecutive days (10 doses total)  Encysted strongyles are a class of worms that are untouched  by most other deworming products.  They are the encapselated form of strongles in the lining of the gut simply waiting for their turn to mature and invade the host.  The other class of dewormer that kill them is moxidectin (Quest).  The two products you use do not touch them.  I've had good results with PP on thin horses that had plateaued and stopped gaining.  It has nothing to do with muscles...
 
  Take pictures at regular intervals  to track his progress.  It is hard to see the improvements when you see him everyday.  You can add regular vegetable oil (1/4C for starters) to his mash just to get additional calories into him. It won't cause any digestive upset and is the most calorie dense form of feed.

Agree that hay is the best basic diet for a horse. I also disagree with the RB comment tho, as it's the same as small bales - it depends how it's been grown/cut/kept as to how good it is.

Regarding MM comments about green growing grass, yes it's true that it will *usually* put weight on a horse, BUT it is not their natural, main food source. Horses have evolved for semi-arid regions, eating a variety of mainly poor grade(compared with lush, cattle fattening pasture) forage. This lush diet which domestic horses commonly live on frequently has adverse health effects. Recent studies have begun to show us how serious & how common insulin problems due to rich diets can be, which are the basic cause of 'grass founder' and weightloss is another possible symptom that can come out of IR. So, being a hcp & seeing laminitis is so common, I am perhaps a little more cautious & paranoid about rich grass than necessary(but then again, maybe not), but it's certainly worth keeping an eye on the situation & considering the possibility of too much sugar/starch causing issues.

On that note, there was a comment about corn being good for creating heat. Corn is a particularly problematic grain for a horse, as it is very high in starch and harder for them to digest. Therefore it is quite likely to cause hindgut acidosis, leading to laminitis, colic & ulcers. Therefore I would not advise feeding corn at all. While as a rule, grain is not generally good for horses anyway, oats are about the safest option. As for heat in winter, as someone also already said, it is hay/roughage, not grain that is best for this, as the horse's body creates heat as a 'byproduct' of digesting fibre.

Miles is really looking much better since I upped his alfalfa pellets.  I just think he has trouble chewing.  It's been 2 yrs since the dentist saw him.  But he's been skin and bones.  These pellets have helped him a LOT.  So I know he has trouble chewing.  Plus if you squat down and put the feed/mush in his pan he takes a mouthful, swings that big head around and dribbles it all over you.  I don't think he'd be as capable of chewing the cubes, do you?   I soak everything anyway.

Powerpack, isn't it?  The deworming - doubledose for 5 days straight.  I was concerned when the vet prescribed it and my horse farm neighbor said they do that to theirs occasionally, no big deal.

ETA:  I wanted to say, JJ, the feeding plan you described at the beginning sounded really good to me.

does temperature of the beet pulp really matter?
because whenever I put water in with the beet pulp where i work its just straight from the hose so its freezing cold water and my bosses trained me that way.

I think the colder it is the longer it takes to absorb/soak.  Using the hose is the most convenient.  In the winter I bring jugs of hot water out of the house with me and it seems to soak up MUCH faster!  Mmmmmm hot gruel! []

Of course, that's not strictly beet pulp but the pellets I use for feed.

Everyone has their own way of feeding and no one way is correct.  However - how much weight is a scoop?  A scoop could mean so many things.  My scoop may be different than your scoop.  I would find out what the weight of a scoop of feed is and then go from there.  You may or may not be feeding enough depending on the scoop.

Personally I prefer simpler feeding regimes and I would simplify yours quite a bit.  It has always given me way more success than trying to feed 5 different things and hope for the best.  A lot of your good senior feeds have beet pulp in them, the right balance of nutrients, and as much fat and protein as the mare & foal feed.  Some even have oil and/or flax in them so you don't need to use BOSS.  Plus its usually created in a very easily digestible manner compared to the mare & foal with less molasses which is also easier on the older bellies.  (speaking of which - have you checked for ulcers???)  I would take out the beet pulp, take out the mare & foal and replace both of those with a complete senior feed.  Depending on the senior feed chosen I may even remove the BOSS & Alfalfa unless using those as a treat.  I would feed EXACTLY how the bag tells you too.  For many senior feeds that is right around 12-14 lbs for a 1000 lb horse.  I know a lot of people who feed in "scoops" rather than weight tend to fall way below this target level of feed. 

If possible I would also split your feedings up.  2 feedings like you are doing is ok.  3 is doing better and 4 feedings is great.  Helps keep stuff in the belly and makes the digestive system work better.  They get more out of their feed that way.  While at work I've split it up where I do 1 feeding of 50% of the total rations in the morning.  Then when I get home from work the horse would get 25% of the rations and then the remaining 25% right before I went to bed.  Even that worked better than just 2 freedings. 

Good luck.

j_c I was dismayed by the vet who told me how much to feed in scoops.  I could hear the dialogue on this forum about exactly what you just said.  "how much is in a scoop"
HOWEVER she did recommend a complete senior feed and once I did my research, I could continue using the senior feed I'd had them on and add the alfalfa pellets to make it "complete" by the mfr guidelines. 
I went to a seminar once and they were saying that the people who formulate the feed have PhD's in that stuff.  Why should I second guess them by adding this and that.  So I feed my Sr and the alfalfa.  I stopped the BOSS because someone (maybe you) mentioned that there was probably enough of the nutrients in the feed.  BOSS might add too much....  fat, I think?  Miles' hooves are bad again this year so I've thought about BOSS again.  *sigh*

I doubt it was me who said not to feed BOSS.  I like BOSS in most cases & Rascal gets a cup a day with his feed.  The others get it as a treat in the winter. 

However - in cases where a horse has some sort of weight issue - I like to go back to basics and then after a little while add an extra like BOSS in. 

I wanted to say to jj, too.  You can take a fresh sample of manure to the vet and they can check it for worms.  Not only are you being selective in what you're treating for but, if there are no worms you won't be spending the money and putting the chemicals in there.  Some people do this all the time and never worm unless necessary.

I think it's cheaper in the long run.